Why is it that dispensationalists often proclaim that the Holy Spirit was never around interacting with man before Pentecost? How else would God redeem his original covenant people by any other means but transformation of the inward man? That Christ was a shadow and type in their time, doesn't negate the spirit's work of righteousness in their hearts. "Faith is substance of the things hoped for, the evidence of things not yet seen." And their faith was in Jehovah. I often hear answers inferring obedience to the law by dispensationalist, but perhaps I am not hearing from their most able theologians. But have they learned nothing from the New Testament about the purpose and limitations of the law, and what Christ meritious work is for? They're OT evidences for the Holy Spirit's presence at least amongst Israel and it reverbrates in the Psalms.

Part of me thinks that perhaps during Christ's earthly ministry that the Holy Spirit was absent, well except from Christ himself, but all the more it was poured out upon believers from all nations at Pentecost. I'm not sure on that one... so go easy on me.

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Ryan
1689 London Baptist Confession

Dispensationalists say that the Holy Spirit did not live permanently with people in the OT, but came upon people at various times.

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The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

At Southern I've talked to more than a few "Calvinistic dispensationalists." They propose that it is entirely possible for the Holy Spirit to perform a regenerating work in a person without taking up permanent residence in that person. They think that Covenantalists do not do justice to Jesus' words about Pentecost.

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Ben
Sanford, NC
TE Ohio Valley Presbytery, PCA

I've heard something similar, but I don't have a clear picture of what these MacArthur dispensationalists believe. Plus, it seems like a Holy Spirit that moves and than becomes absentee-- gives creedance to denial of eternal security and a system of works-righteousness for Israel in the Old Testament. Yet faith, sinfulness and repentance are profoundly acknowledged in the Old Testament, particularly the Psalms. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

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Ryan
1689 London Baptist Confession

Psalm 51:11
Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.

Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them.

Isaiah 63:11
Then he remembered the days of old, of Moses and his people. Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is he who put in the midst of them his Holy Spirit,

The work and presence of the Holy Spirit in the O.T. has always been a mystery to me as well.

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Misery induces despair, pride induces presumption. The Incarnation shows man the
greatness of his misery by the greatness of the remedy which he required.
~ Pascal, Pensees 526

Speaking of Ishmael and Isaac, this verse is very clear about regeneration:

Galatians 4:29 "But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now."

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Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA
Church Blog

"there is no creature, either in heaven or on earth, who loves us more than Jesus Christ"
Belgic Confession, Article 26

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

It always comes back to the protoevangelum... Genesis 3:15.

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Ryan
1689 London Baptist Confession

We also have to ask ourselves these questions:

Are men totally depraved by birth?

Yes.

Does this make them unable to believe and do good works?

Yes.

Was there anyone in the OT who believed in God and did good works?

Yes.

Who is the author of regeneration that enables man to believe and do good works?

The Holy Spirit.

Therefore He was active amongst His people then as He is now in that regenerating work.

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Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA
Church Blog

"there is no creature, either in heaven or on earth, who loves us more than Jesus Christ"
Belgic Confession, Article 26

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Either they were all damned or the Holy Spirit was present.

Of course as Ryan said they believe the Spirit regenerates but does not dwell in the believer. The obvious problem with this view tho, is that if the Spirit left us we would immediately fall back into unbelief.

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*Peter Gray* Elkins Park RPCNA

"Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. " Mk 9:24
"The greatest thing we can desire, next to the glory of God, is our own salvation; and the sweetest thing we can desire is the assurance of our salvation. In this life we cannot get higher than to be assured of that which in the next life is to be enjoyed. All saints shall enjoy a heaven when they leave this earth; some saints enjoy a heaven while they are here on earth." Joseph Caryl

Calvin´s comments are appropriate at this point:

"The truth on which we are now insisting is an important one, as many learned men have been inconsiderately drawn into the opinion that the elect, by falling into mortal sin, may lose the Spirit altogether, and be alienated from God. The contrary is clearly declared by Peter, who tells us that the word by which we are born again is an incorruptible seed, (1 Peter 1:23) and John is equally explicit in informing us that the elect are preserved from falling away altogether, (1 John 3:9.) However much they (the elect) may appear for a time to have been cast off by God, it is afterwards seen that grace must have been alive in their breast, even during that interval when it appeared to be extinct. Nor is there any force in the objection that David speaks as if he feared that he might be deprived of the Spirit. It is natural that the saints, when they have fallen into sin, and have thus done what they could do to expel the grace of God, should feel an anxiety upon this point; but it is their duty to hold fast the truth that grace is the incorruptible seed of God, which can never perish in any heart where it has been deposited."�

Commentary on Psalm 51 vs. 11

[Edited on 9-28-2005 by poimen]

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Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA
Church Blog

"there is no creature, either in heaven or on earth, who loves us more than Jesus Christ"
Belgic Confession, Article 26

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I don't think that this prayer petition neccessarily entails that the petitioner is in anyway acknowledging that the Holy Spirit is capable of departing from a true believer. It should rather be seen as a supplication of appreciative dependence upon the indwelling Holy Spirit. When we're called to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling," and "make our calling and election sure," I think continual petition for the Holy Spirit's presence signifies our submission, humility, and recognition of the Holy Spirit's power.

Similarly, when we ask that God to "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil," it doesn't entail that we acknowledge that God can or desires to tempt us. We can still make such a proposition and accept James 1:13. It's the same as asking God to "lift us up in paths of righteousness for his name sake." We acknowledge that without him we can do no good works.

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Ryan
1689 London Baptist Confession

Sorry I messed the thread up.. I was still editing. I deleted and subsequently reposted the thread that Pastor Kok was responding to... I need to just edit it from now on.

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Ryan
1689 London Baptist Confession

Great. Now I look like an idiot!

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Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA
Church Blog

"there is no creature, either in heaven or on earth, who loves us more than Jesus Christ"
Belgic Confession, Article 26

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

How then should we interpret his words and do them justice? What did the Spirit do then that it wasn't already doing?

[Edited on 9-28-2005 by Rick Larson]

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The Piper will lead us to reason...

Rick Larson
Hope Christian and Missionary Alliance Church
Apple Valley, MN.

Actually, it's me that looks like the idiot.

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Ryan
1689 London Baptist Confession

Great. Now you are making me look like an idiot because you have undermined my claim that I looked like an idiot!

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Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA
Church Blog

"there is no creature, either in heaven or on earth, who loves us more than Jesus Christ"
Belgic Confession, Article 26

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Well, the Lord's prayer phrase can also mean "Do not bring us to hard testing" or "do not bring us to the time of trial".

However, in Psalm 51, the hebrew poetry is parrallel in that he also says "Cast me not away from your presence". How would that take place ? ? If God removes whatever influence the Holy Spirit had under the Old Covenant.

I do think the work of regeneration was similar but was the law written on thier hearts as it is today ?

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Misery induces despair, pride induces presumption. The Incarnation shows man the
greatness of his misery by the greatness of the remedy which he required.
~ Pascal, Pensees 526

Maybe my analogy wasn't so good... anyway...

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Ryan
1689 London Baptist Confession

Don't you mean HE and not 'it' ?

Reading from Paul Enns' Moody Handbook of Theology, he states that in the OT, believers were saved the same way they were in the NT. In fact, EVERY dispie writer (even Chafer) has consistently (when challenged) taught only ONE way of salvation.

My observations from my dispie days (I hold to CT now): The HS did not rest permanently upon men for the purpose of empowerment for service as He now does in the NT. Thus, the promise of Jesus of the HS coming and abiding with us 'forever' - no more Psalm 51 'taking away' of the Spirit. No more Saul in 1 Sam. with the Spirit departing from him, then coming back sometimes so that it was said 'Is Saul now one of the prophets ?'

When making a 'why do dispensationalists believe' thread, it would be helpful to quote actual dispensationalists and not the strawmen so freqently attacked by people like Gerstner and other anti-dispies..... just a tip from a former dispie who still has a lot of dispie friends that don't look like MacArthur OR Lalonde/Lindsey OR Chafer.....(or Bock and Blaising).....

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K. Joel Gilliard
Theologically Correct dot Com
http://www.theologicallycorrect.com
Sunday School Teacher (Elementary 2), Grace Communion Church (EFCA) formerly Gaithersburg Community Church
http://www.gchurch.org
The Blog: THINK! - Wrestlin' With Wordz -N- Ideaz
The Upcoming CD: The Definition

yes. mea culpa.

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Misery induces despair, pride induces presumption. The Incarnation shows man the
greatness of his misery by the greatness of the remedy which he required.
~ Pascal, Pensees 526

Forgiven.

Bruce, Matt, Phillip.... you can douse the stake now. He's okay.

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K. Joel Gilliard
Theologically Correct dot Com
http://www.theologicallycorrect.com
Sunday School Teacher (Elementary 2), Grace Communion Church (EFCA) formerly Gaithersburg Community Church
http://www.gchurch.org
The Blog: THINK! - Wrestlin' With Wordz -N- Ideaz
The Upcoming CD: The Definition