Conversion Experience and the Reformed Faith

Coram Deo · #1 (**permalink**) 10-01-2007, 05:24 PM

I was reading an article by Prof. Herman Hanko and he was talking about conversion and conversion experience....

Here is what he had to say:

"Further, such conversions, sudden and profound, not only became the test of whether one was a genuine Christian, but also served as the ground of personal assurance of salvation. Indeed, without such extraordinary experiences, assurance was impossible.

All of that is inimical to the Reformed faith. No man who is genuinely Reformed can teach that kind of doctrine of conversion. The Reformed doctrine of conversion is something quite different.

Conversion in Reformed thought, and this is explicitly stated in our Heidelberg Catechism in Lord's Day 33, is not an unusual, once-for-all, extraordinary, inexplicable experience through which one passes from the "dark night of the soul" to rapturous union with God. But conversion is a daily characteristic of a believing, regenerated child of God. Conversion ought to take place and does take place every day of his life. As long as the believing child of God lives here in this world, he is a believer who does battle with sin, not only in the world about him, but in his own flesh. He is not yet perfect. He is not yet brought into the everlasting joy that shall be the inheritance of the people of God in glory. Here he is in the church militant. Here he must do battle. Here he carries with him the body of his death.

Conversion is, as Lord's Day 33 expresses it, "a daily killing of the old man." That is, conversion is a deep, daily sorrow for sin. Yet it is also a quickening of the new man. It is a daily joy that one finds at the foot of the cross when one brings the burden of his sins to Calvary. A daily conversion, a daily battle, a daily fleeing from sin, a daily hastening to the cross with an increasingly urgent longing to leave this life which is nothing but a continual death in order to be at last in the everlasting perfection of heaven - that is conversion. "

I am abit confused here.. What is he really trying to say? Is he saying we place to much on the Spiritual aspect of conversion? Is there a conversion moment?

wsw201 · #2 (**permalink**) 10-01-2007, 05:41 PM

He may have been speaking against the spirit of revivalism that had taken hold of the Reformed Church, especially in the US and the Presbyterian Church, during the late 18th century and early 19th century. Can you give any context?

Coram Deo · #3 (**permalink**) 10-01-2007, 05:48 PM

He was Ultimately talking about Revivalism but in that subsection he was talking about a wrong view of conversion which ties in to revivalism but I wanted just to understand and comprehend his definition of conversion... I always was taught and believed that we can know our moment of conversion but he sounds like he is saying that the experience aspect is just emotionalism and that conversion is on going daily and that there is not a single point moment that we can look back upon. Am I reading him wrong?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wsw201

He may have been speaking against the spirit of revivalism that had taken hold of the Reformed Church, especially in the US and the Presbyterian Church, during the late 18th century and early 19th century. Can you give any context?

Me Died Blue · #4 (**permalink**) 10-01-2007, 05:51 PM

It seems to be a criticism of today's widespread evangelical stress on some amazingly emotional, out-of-this-world feeling and understanding that is often looked for to validate a supposed conversion. The expected presence of such an experience (which, as Wayne noted, arguably comes largely from the influence of revivalism) is looking for something that will simply not be there in many real cases of biblical regeneration and conversion. Furthermore, that false expectation so often comes at the expense of looking at the gradual appearance of the fruit of the Spirit in converted people's lives, which will usually come in response to healthy and regular attendance to the Word and sacraments as means of grace.

Of course that does not mean that the actual converting of the soul does not happen at one specific time - but expecting the evidence of such conversion to model that same kind of instantaneous nature is the error to which the above quotation seems to be responding.

victorbravo · #5 (**permalink**) 10-01-2007, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me Died Blue

It seems to be a criticism of today's widespread evangelical stress on some amazingly emotional, out-of-this-world feeling and understanding that is often looked for to validate a supposed conversion. The expected presence of such an experience (which, as Wayne noted, arguably comes largely from the influence of revivalism) is looking for something that will simply not be there in many real cases of biblical regeneration and conversion. Furthermore, that false expectation so often comes at the expense of looking at the gradual appearance of the fruit of the Spirit in converted people's lives, which will usually come in response to healthy and regular attendance to the Word and sacraments as means of grace.

Of course that does not mean that the actual converting of the soul does not happen at one specific time - but expecting the evidence of such conversion to model that same kind of instantaneous nature is the error to which the above quotation seems to be responding.

I guess it is personal testimony time for me yet again. I can remember when I was not a believer, and I'm very aware of being a believer now, but I can't pin down an actual time or date when that changed. In my case, the realization just "sorta growed" until I couldn't deny it any longer.

I'm thankful that biblical conversion does not require a moment set in time that you can remember (like some who advocate burying a committment card in the backyard) in order to have assurance. Some people are blessed with such a memory, others are not. Many have been believers all their conscious lives. God knows how best to glorify himself with the timing.

Ivan · #6 (**permalink**) 10-01-2007, 08:56 PM

I believe there is a point in time when someone becomes a Christian. Some people can't point to that date and time. Others know exactly when they came to trust only in Christ.

Does that mean that for those who know when they become Christians there is no further spiritual growth? We all know that is nonsense! Whether we know the time and place or not, there is spiritual growth for all our lives and that growth will continue until we see Jesus face to face.

armourbearer · #7 (**permalink**) 10-01-2007, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan

I believe there is a point in time when someone becomes a Christian. Some people can't point to that date and time. Others know exactly when they came to trust only in Christ.

Does that mean that for those who know when they become Christians there is no further spiritual growth? We all know that is nonsense! Whether we know the time and place or not, there is spiritual growth for all our lives and that growth will continue until we see Jesus face to face.

Ivan, I think "point in time" conversion creates an impossible working environment for pastoral ministry. Hence I fully concur with your last sentence, that spiritual growth is for all of life. We are told to make our calling and election sure by giving diligence to add to our faith. Insofar as we do so we are being renewed or converted daily.

One of the major pastoral problems associated with the "punctiliar" conversion paradigm is its tendency to create a mindset which elevates experience over instruction. Rather than practice being made to conform to principle, it is usually the case that the "conversion" experience becomes the rule for distinguishing truth and falsehood.

The great strength of the "linear" conversion concept, as taught by the old standards, is that it is fully in keeping with everything our Lord has taught regarding the kingdom of God and its hidden but progressive nature. This leaves room for the humble practice of self-examination and self-denial as a part of true kingdom conversion.

Ivan · #8 (**permalink**) 10-01-2007, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan

I believe there is a point in time when someone becomes a Christian. Some people can't point to that date and time. Others know exactly when they came to trust only in Christ.

Does that mean that for those who know when they become Christians there is no further spiritual growth? We all know that is nonsense! Whether we know the time and place or not, there is spiritual growth for all our lives and that growth will continue until we see Jesus face to face.

Ivan, I think "point in time" conversion creates an impossible working environment for pastoral ministry. Hence I fully concur with your last sentence, that spiritual growth is for all of life. We are told to make our calling and election sure by giving diligence to add to our faith. Insofar as we do so we are being renewed or converted daily.

One of the major pastoral problems associated with the "punctiliar" conversion paradigm is its tendency to create a mindset which elevates experience over instruction. Rather than practice being made to conform to principle, it is usually the case that the "conversion" experience becomes the rule for distinguishing truth and falsehood.

The great strength of the "linear" conversion concept, as taught by the old standards, is that it is fully in keeping with everything our Lord has taught regarding the kingdom of God and its hidden but progressive nature. This leaves room for the humble practice of self-examination and self-denial as a part of true kingdom conversion.

I fully concur, Matthew. I can remember the place and time I first trusted Christ as LORD and Saviour, but that does not mean that I was finished at that point in time in my spiritual growth. Of course not! I've come along way since and I have a lot further to go in my sanctification.

My church gets a steady diet of an emphasis of growing daily in the LORD. We have been saved, we are being saved and we will be saved. Justification, sanctification, glorification. "The point in time" conversion doesn't mean that the person has fully arrived. If that is the understand of that term here I would have to say that has never been my understanding of the term nor the understanding of any Southern Baptist pastor I have know. Of course I know there must be exceptions.

Semper Fidelis · #9 (**permalink**) 10-01-2007, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan

I believe there is a point in time when someone becomes a Christian. Some people can't point to that date and time. Others know exactly when they came to trust only in Christ.

Does that mean that for those who know when they become Christians there is no further spiritual growth? We all know that is nonsense! Whether we know the time and place or not, there is spiritual growth for all our lives and that growth will continue until we see Jesus face to face.

Ivan, I think "point in time" conversion creates an impossible working environment for pastoral ministry. Hence I fully concur with your last sentence, that spiritual growth is for all of life. We are told to make our calling and election sure by giving diligence to add to our faith. Insofar as we do so we are being renewed or converted daily.

One of the major pastoral problems associated with the "punctiliar" conversion paradigm is its tendency to create a mindset which elevates experience over instruction. Rather than practice being made to conform to principle, it is usually the case that the "conversion" experience becomes the rule for distinguishing truth and falsehood.

The great strength of the "linear" conversion concept, as taught by the old standards, is that it is fully in keeping with everything our Lord has taught regarding the kingdom of God and its hidden but progressive nature. This leaves room for the humble practice of self-examination and self-denial as a part of true kingdom conversion.

I like it when you have the time to type out a bit more.

We tend to be "either or" types these days. I obviously reject the notion that conversion is devoid of religious "experience" but it is experience itself that is sought after these days.

Even among folks that state they reject revivalism, the idea is still inherent in many to see regeneration and conversion as this "punctiliar event" as you called it. That is, that a person has arrived at saving faith. It's one of the reasons I reject the basic Baptistic understanding of the sacrament as it seeks to tie a sign that is meant to signify all the benefits of union with Christ and say that, in the profession, the person has attained to them and we now apply the sign.

In fact, we have been saved in order that we might not only be justified but be conformed, ever daily, to that image.

I remind my Baptist brethren at Church regularly that, when we sin, it is not as if we have fallen completely from Grace. I know that sounds very basic to some but we act precisely that this is the case. If our Baptism signified something inside of us, which is why the Church waited until we professed something, then it is natural for many to be concerned that what they thought they had when they professed was an illusion. There is a tension present to re-capture the strength of emotion they felt once that they might be assured that they were not self-deceived.

Hence, there is a natural tendency for their to be a "second plank" that restores the confidence now lost. Altar calls and re-baptisms fill this void.

Yet, what people need to be reminded of is that the Gospel converted them to a path of redemption. The Gospel says to stricken sinners that Christ died for you while you were His enemies and He will not forsake you now that you are his friends. He intends to save you to the uttermost. You need not return to the point of conversion but you need simply to turn to the Cross and believe upon Christ! Remember your baptism in which it was promised to you that Christ saves to the uttermost all who believe upon Him.

When Christians start to understand that faith is variously weak or strong depending upon the person and upon the season of their life they will stop looking for emotions as a substitute. For faith, it is, that clings to Christ ever. It is a faith that ever comes to Him as a beggar. It is a faith that is able to cry out, even when you don't feel converted, and simply says: "I believe! Help though my unbelief!"

Barnpreacher · #10 (**permalink**) 10-01-2007, 10:14 PM

Amen, guys. I truly believe this is an issue that has many believers in bondage today. These have been well thought out posts.

Barnpreacher · #11 (**permalink**) 10-01-2007, 10:16 PM

Is not the teaching of decisional regeneration the reason for much of a Christian's misunderstanding of what conversion truly is?

Semper Fidelis · #12 (**permalink**) 10-01-2007, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnpreacher

Is not the teaching of decisional regeneration the reason for much of a Christian's misunderstanding of what conversion truly is?

I believe so Brother. I hate that doctrine because, when you really start to understand the Gospel, you really understand how it rejects the Gospel itself. I know men who don't intend that to be the case but whenever you place the nexus of our standing in Christ with the individual it fundamentally alters the Gospel.

armourbearer · #13 (**permalink**) 10-01-2007, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

Hence, there is a natural tendency for their to be a "second plank" that restores the confidence now lost. Altar calls and re-baptisms fill this void.

Well noted, Rich. We can also mention "higher life" theology and pseudo "baptism with the Spirit" as other examples of "second plank" confidence. In all these examples of false Christian experience we can discern the single element that Christian growth means going beyond what Christ has done. Biblically, however, the work of the Holy Spirit is always seen in terms of applying the benefits of Christ to us.

Ivan · #14 (**permalink**) 10-01-2007, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan

I believe there is a point in time when someone becomes a Christian. Some people can't point to that date and time. Others know exactly when they came to trust only in Christ.

Does that mean that for those who know when they become Christians there is no further spiritual growth? We all know that is nonsense! Whether we know the time and place or not, there is spiritual growth for all our lives and that growth will continue until we see Jesus face to face.

Ivan, I think "point in time" conversion creates an impossible working environment for pastoral ministry. Hence I fully concur with your last sentence, that spiritual growth is for all of life. We are told to make our calling and election sure by giving diligence to add to our faith. Insofar as we do so we are being renewed or converted daily.

One of the major pastoral problems associated with the "punctiliar" conversion paradigm is its tendency to create a mindset which elevates experience over instruction. Rather than practice being made to conform to principle, it is usually the case that the "conversion" experience becomes the rule for distinguishing truth and falsehood.

The great strength of the "linear" conversion concept, as taught by the old standards, is that it is fully in keeping with everything our Lord has taught regarding the kingdom of God and its hidden but progressive nature. This leaves room for the humble practice of self-examination and self-denial as a part of true kingdom conversion.

I like it when you have the time to type out a bit more.

We tend to be "either or" types these days. I obviously reject the notion that conversion is devoid of religious "experience" but it is experience itself that is sought after these days.

Even among folks that state they reject revivalism, the idea is still inherent in many to see regeneration and conversion as this "punctiliar event" as you called it. That is, that a person has arrived at saving faith. It's one of the reasons I reject the basic Baptistic understanding of the sacrament as it seeks to tie a sign that is meant to signify all the benefits of union with Christ and say that, in the profession, the person has attained to them and we now apply the sign.

In fact, we have been saved in order that we might not only be justified but be conformed, ever daily, to that image.

I remind my Baptist brethren at Church regularly that, when we sin, it is not as if we have fallen completely from Grace. I know that sounds very basic to some but we act precisely that this is the case. If our Baptism signified something inside of us, which is why the Church waited until we professed something, then it is natural for many to be concerned that what they thought they had when they professed was an illusion. There is a tension present to re-capture the strength of emotion they felt once that they might be assured that they were not self-deceived.

Hence, there is a natural tendency for their to be a "second plank" that restores the confidence now lost. Altar calls and re-baptisms fill this void.

Yet, what people need to be reminded of is that the Gospel converted them to a path of redemption. The Gospel says to stricken sinners that Christ died for you while you were His enemies and He will not forsake you now that you are his friends. He intends to save you to the uttermost. You need not return to the point of conversion but you need simply to turn to the Cross and believe upon Christ! Remember your baptism in which it was promised to you that Christ saves to the uttermost all who believe upon Him.

When Christians start to understand that faith is variously weak or strong depending upon the person and upon the season of their life they will stop looking for emotions as a substitute. For faith, it is, that clings to Christ ever. It is a faith that ever comes to Him as a beggar. It is a faith that is able to cry out, even when you don't feel converted, and simply says: "I believe! Help though my unbelief!"

Perhaps I'm the only Southern Baptist that views this the same way you do, but I know that's not true. Perhaps there is a stereotypical understanding of what Southern Baptists believe here. I can tell you that what you say it true about some Southern Baptists (and other denominations that have this flawed understanding of salvation), but it is not true of all Southern Baptists or even most.

Matthew states that

Quote:

I think "point in time" conversion creates an impossible working environment for pastoral ministry.

I can understand it would be an impossible working environment for pastoral ministry with the flawed understanding of salvation that you both have stated here. But, again, this is not the understanding I have nor my church has nor the Southern Baptist pastors I converse with.

Coram Deo · #15 (**permalink**) 10-01-2007, 10:43 PM

This has been a great and interesting thread..... I almost feel my head spinning trying to comprehend it all...

I have always thought that their must be an experience of conversion but Hanko has brought out some interesting thoughts....

You mentioned that it still should not be devoid of experience So, What would this religious experience be?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

We tend to be "either or" types these days. I obviously reject the notion that conversion is devoid of religious "experience" but it is experience itself that is sought after these days.

victorbravo · #16 (**permalink**) 10-01-2007, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunaer

You mentioned that it still should not be devoid of experience So, What would this religious experience be?

I think what people are getting at here falls under the heading of sanctification. A continued growth in Christ. Not necessarily a singular experience (although that can happen).

For instance, suppose you find yourself really loving to read the law of God, and previously you couldn't stand it. That might be such an experience.

Semper Fidelis · #17 (**permalink**) 10-01-2007, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by victorbravo

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunaer

You mentioned that it still should not be devoid of experience So, What would this religious experience be?

I think what people are getting at here falls under the heading of sanctification. A continued growth in Christ. Not necessarily a singular experience (although that can happen).

For instance, suppose you find yourself really loving to read the law of God, and previously you couldn't stand it. That might be such an experience.

Right. Probably one of the most useful lessons I ever had was from a Roman Catholic. He was charismatic and hardly a "died in the wool" Trent kind of guy. Either way, he made an observation that I think is true.

Our spiritual lives are often like journeys in the desert. We're likely to go through stretches of trial and a feeling that things are dire. Yet, God does, in His mercy, bring us to oases along the way in which our affections are stirred.

Don't get me wrong, I am regularly enriched and refreshed but I don't despair when I'm not "feeling" refreshed. I think part of our sanctification is hanging on even when we our affections are not in Cloud Nine.

Unfortunately for many, experience is all they have. Because they never really receive the refreshment of their souls in the Gospel they can only move from experience to experience. I remember well being a Charismatic that had only brief moments of "ecstasy" on a week by week basis during worship. I hoped, each time, I could connect more by "letting go" and getting something more permanent. As it was, I would literally leave Church depressed for the week and failed struggles with temptation awaited me there.

Even on my worst days now, I know whom I have believed and they are better than my best when I had not the Gospel.