I was reading an article by Prof. Herman Hanko and he was talking about conversion and conversion experience....

Here is what he had to say:

"Further, such conversions, sudden and profound, not only became the test of whether one was a genuine Christian, but also served as the ground of personal assurance of salvation. Indeed, without such extraordinary experiences, assurance was impossible.

All of that is inimical to the Reformed faith. No man who is genuinely Reformed can teach that kind of doctrine of conversion. The Reformed doctrine of conversion is something quite different.

Conversion in Reformed thought, and this is explicitly stated in our Heidelberg Catechism in Lord's Day 33, is not an unusual, once-for-all, extraordinary, inexplicable experience through which one passes from the "dark night of the soul" to rapturous union with God. But conversion is a daily characteristic of a believing, regenerated child of God. Conversion ought to take place and does take place every day of his life. As long as the believing child of God lives here in this world, he is a believer who does battle with sin, not only in the world about him, but in his own flesh. He is not yet perfect. He is not yet brought into the everlasting joy that shall be the inheritance of the people of God in glory. Here he is in the church militant. Here he must do battle. Here he carries with him the body of his death.

Conversion is, as Lord's Day 33 expresses it, "a daily killing of the old man." That is, conversion is a deep, daily sorrow for sin. Yet it is also a quickening of the new man. It is a daily joy that one finds at the foot of the cross when one brings the burden of his sins to Calvary. A daily conversion, a daily battle, a daily fleeing from sin, a daily hastening to the cross with an increasingly urgent longing to leave this life which is nothing but a continual death in order to be at last in the everlasting perfection of heaven - that is conversion. "


I am abit confused here.. What is he really trying to say? Is he saying we place to much on the Spiritual aspect of conversion? Is there a conversion moment?

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Michael Daniels
Reformed, RPCNA
Denton, Maryland

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He may have been speaking against the spirit of revivalism that had taken hold of the Reformed Church, especially in the US and the Presbyterian Church, during the late 18th century and early 19th century. Can you give any context?

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~Wayne Wylie~
Member, Mid Cities Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Ruling Elder
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Bedford, TX

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He was Ultimately talking about Revivalism but in that subsection he was talking about a wrong view of conversion which ties in to revivalism but I wanted just to understand and comprehend his definition of conversion... I always was taught and believed that we can know our moment of conversion but he sounds like he is saying that the experience aspect is just emotionalism and that conversion is on going daily and that there is not a single point moment that we can look back upon. Am I reading him wrong?

It seems to be a criticism of today's widespread evangelical stress on some amazingly emotional, out-of-this-world feeling and understanding that is often looked for to validate a supposed conversion. The expected presence of such an experience (which, as Wayne noted, arguably comes largely from the influence of revivalism) is looking for something that will simply not be there in many real cases of biblical regeneration and conversion. Furthermore, that false expectation so often comes at the expense of looking at the gradual appearance of the fruit of the Spirit in converted people's lives, which will usually come in response to healthy and regular attendance to the Word and sacraments as means of grace.

Of course that does not mean that the actual converting of the soul does not happen at one specific time - but expecting the evidence of such conversion to model that same kind of instantaneous nature is the error to which the above quotation seems to be responding.

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Christopher Blum
Member of Trinity Presbyterian Church of Northern Kentucky (PCA) in Burlington, KY

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I guess it is personal testimony time for me yet again. I can remember when I was not a believer, and I'm very aware of being a believer now, but I can't pin down an actual time or date when that changed. In my case, the realization just "sorta growed" until I couldn't deny it any longer.

I'm thankful that biblical conversion does not require a moment set in time that you can remember (like some who advocate burying a committment card in the backyard) in order to have assurance. Some people are blessed with such a memory, others are not. Many have been believers all their conscious lives. God knows how best to glorify himself with the timing.

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Raymond Victor Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

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I believe there is a point in time when someone becomes a Christian. Some people can't point to that date and time. Others know exactly when they came to trust only in Christ.

Does that mean that for those who know when they become Christians there is no further spiritual growth? We all know that is nonsense! Whether we know the time and place or not, there is spiritual growth for all our lives and that growth will continue until we see Jesus face to face.

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Ivan R. Schoen, B.A., M.A., M.L.I.S.
Pastor of Maranatha Baptist Church (SBC)
Poplar Grove, IL, USA
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Ivan, I think "point in time" conversion creates an impossible working environment for pastoral ministry. Hence I fully concur with your last sentence, that spiritual growth is for all of life. We are told to make our calling and election sure by giving diligence to add to our faith. Insofar as we do so we are being renewed or converted daily.

One of the major pastoral problems associated with the "punctiliar" conversion paradigm is its tendency to create a mindset which elevates experience over instruction. Rather than practice being made to conform to principle, it is usually the case that the "conversion" experience becomes the rule for distinguishing truth and falsehood.

The great strength of the "linear" conversion concept, as taught by the old standards, is that it is fully in keeping with everything our Lord has taught regarding the kingdom of God and its hidden but progressive nature. This leaves room for the humble practice of self-examination and self-denial as a part of true kingdom conversion.

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Yours sincerely,


"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."

I fully concur, Matthew. I can remember the place and time I first trusted Christ as LORD and Saviour, but that does not mean that I was finished at that point in time in my spiritual growth. Of course not! I've come along way since and I have a lot further to go in my sanctification.

My church gets a steady diet of an emphasis of growing daily in the LORD. We have been saved, we are being saved and we will be saved. Justification, sanctification, glorification. "The point in time" conversion doesn't mean that the person has fully arrived. If that is the understand of that term here I would have to say that has never been my understanding of the term nor the understanding of any Southern Baptist pastor I have know. Of course I know there must be exceptions.

I like it when you have the time to type out a bit more.

We tend to be "either or" types these days. I obviously reject the notion that conversion is devoid of religious "experience" but it is experience itself that is sought after these days.

Even among folks that state they reject revivalism, the idea is still inherent in many to see regeneration and conversion as this "punctiliar event" as you called it. That is, that a person has arrived at saving faith. It's one of the reasons I reject the basic Baptistic understanding of the sacrament as it seeks to tie a sign that is meant to signify all the benefits of union with Christ and say that, in the profession, the person has attained to them and we now apply the sign.

In fact, we have been saved in order that we might not only be justified but be conformed, ever daily, to that image.

I remind my Baptist brethren at Church regularly that, when we sin, it is not as if we have fallen completely from Grace. I know that sounds very basic to some but we act precisely that this is the case. If our Baptism signified something inside of us, which is why the Church waited until we professed something, then it is natural for many to be concerned that what they thought they had when they professed was an illusion. There is a tension present to re-capture the strength of emotion they felt once that they might be assured that they were not self-deceived.

Hence, there is a natural tendency for their to be a "second plank" that restores the confidence now lost. Altar calls and re-baptisms fill this void.

Yet, what people need to be reminded of is that the Gospel converted them to a path of redemption. The Gospel says to stricken sinners that Christ died for you while you were His enemies and He will not forsake you now that you are his friends. He intends to save you to the uttermost. You need not return to the point of conversion but you need simply to turn to the Cross and believe upon Christ! Remember your baptism in which it was promised to you that Christ saves to the uttermost all who believe upon Him.

When Christians start to understand that faith is variously weak or strong depending upon the person and upon the season of their life they will stop looking for emotions as a substitute. For faith, it is, that clings to Christ ever. It is a faith that ever comes to Him as a beggar. It is a faith that is able to cry out, even when you don't feel converted, and simply says: "I believe! Help though my unbelief!"

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Rich
PCA, Northern VA
Student, New Geneva Theological Seminary

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Amen, guys. I truly believe this is an issue that has many believers in bondage today. These have been well thought out posts.

__________________
Ryan Barnhart - Pastor of OGBC
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Student at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary - B.D.

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Is not the teaching of decisional regeneration the reason for much of a Christian's misunderstanding of what conversion truly is?

I believe so Brother. I hate that doctrine because, when you really start to understand the Gospel, you really understand how it rejects the Gospel itself. I know men who don't intend that to be the case but whenever you place the nexus of our standing in Christ with the individual it fundamentally alters the Gospel.

Well noted, Rich. We can also mention "higher life" theology and pseudo "baptism with the Spirit" as other examples of "second plank" confidence. In all these examples of false Christian experience we can discern the single element that Christian growth means going beyond what Christ has done. Biblically, however, the work of the Holy Spirit is always seen in terms of applying the benefits of Christ to us.

Perhaps I'm the only Southern Baptist that views this the same way you do, but I know that's not true. Perhaps there is a stereotypical understanding of what Southern Baptists believe here. I can tell you that what you say it true about some Southern Baptists (and other denominations that have this flawed understanding of salvation), but it is not true of all Southern Baptists or even most.

Matthew states that I can understand it would be an impossible working environment for pastoral ministry with the flawed understanding of salvation that you both have stated here. But, again, this is not the understanding I have nor my church has nor the Southern Baptist pastors I converse with.

This has been a great and interesting thread..... I almost feel my head spinning trying to comprehend it all...

I have always thought that their must be an experience of conversion but Hanko has brought out some interesting thoughts....

You mentioned that it still should not be devoid of experience So, What would this religious experience be?

I think what people are getting at here falls under the heading of sanctification. A continued growth in Christ. Not necessarily a singular experience (although that can happen).

For instance, suppose you find yourself really loving to read the law of God, and previously you couldn't stand it. That might be such an experience.

Right. Probably one of the most useful lessons I ever had was from a Roman Catholic. He was charismatic and hardly a "died in the wool" Trent kind of guy. Either way, he made an observation that I think is true.

Our spiritual lives are often like journeys in the desert. We're likely to go through stretches of trial and a feeling that things are dire. Yet, God does, in His mercy, bring us to oases along the way in which our affections are stirred.

Don't get me wrong, I am regularly enriched and refreshed but I don't despair when I'm not "feeling" refreshed. I think part of our sanctification is hanging on even when we our affections are not in Cloud Nine.

Unfortunately for many, experience is all they have. Because they never really receive the refreshment of their souls in the Gospel they can only move from experience to experience. I remember well being a Charismatic that had only brief moments of "ecstasy" on a week by week basis during worship. I hoped, each time, I could connect more by "letting go" and getting something more permanent. As it was, I would literally leave Church depressed for the week and failed struggles with temptation awaited me there.

Even on my worst days now, I know whom I have believed and they are better than my best when I had not the Gospel.

While I disagree with most of the "decisional" theology that is the norm in the church, could it possibly be that most people look for a "point-in-time" conversion because they see it in the book of Acts? In Acts, you have people (adults) who have believed one thing all their lives, whether Jew or Gentile, and have the gospel preached to them. When they hear the gospel, the Spirit regenerates them and they respond in repentance and faith. They receive a visible sign of the Holy Spirit and are baptized (sometimes the order is reversed). This is the normal way the book of Acts presents conversion.

Is it possible that this is why most modern Christians look for this type of conversion?

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Just another example of how developing a theology based primarily on historical narrative can lead to a defective understanding though. It is not that the experiences are not real but, without commentary, it is dangerous to draw out a theology from just hearing stories.

Look at what doctors do in order to diagnose things - they look at symptoms - and even highly trained doctors come to differing explanations. Just yesterday, James had an appointment with a Neurologist because they're having many different doctors interact with James over the same symptom - a raspy voice with an uncertain cause. In fact, most of what doctors do is use a lot of documented experience to match symptoms with different diseases because you cannot always tell what is the cause of a thing.

But we're not left with no texts on the internal reasons for all those conversion stories. We have the epistles. What is clear from the Epistles is not a teaching to seek dramatic conversion but a story of the Church's life in building up everyone - whether they are abounding or abasing.

As I noted, experience should not be shunned or pretend like it doesn't happen but it's not what sustains us as Christians. Even if we were to look at the experiences in Acts, not all conversion stories are equally dramatic. Cornelius' story is somewhat un-dramatic in comparison with Saul of Tarsus story. Yet Cornelius was no less an recipient of grace than Paul was.

Matthew, being interested in the connection between doctrine and practice, I found this comment enticing. May you unpack it a little more for us?

Owen taught that regeneration was something that happened at a point in time (in which the heart is changed, and a new principle of life is ingrafted). What then are we to do with this doctrine? What practical relevance would you see in it?

__________________
Marty
Ordained Presbyter; Currently Lecturer in Theology
Anglican Church of Australia
(Now finally back! in) Perth, Australia.
"There is nothing so necessary to draw us to repentance as good thoughts of God." (Thomas Manton)

Marty,

Do you mind if I unpack it a bit and then let Matthew finish the job?

I know, for certain, that he wasn't denying the monergistic work of the Spirit during which our eyes our opened and we embrace Christ in faith. If you notice our follow-on conversations, he agreed with me on the idea that, as we are united to Christ in faith, that all the other benefits from that union flow - including our sanctification as we are perfected in the faith.

Thus, he is more specifically critical of the notion of people constantly trying to live in a "conversion moment" or re-producing that moment in which our emotions are aflame with passion. It is a seeking of experience over transformation. It's an unwillingnes on some folk's part to actually seek maturity and, instead, want to "recapture" an emotional feeling. In fact, they don't feel like they're growing unless the emotional feelings are present.

It is not, then, a clinging to Christ and the Gospel to work within us to will and do His good pleasure but a constant seeking after fresh experience. Such men don't cling to sound doctrine after a while but instead collect teachers to tickle their ears and give them shows. It's the difference between Christianity and Trinity Broadcasting Network.

Michael,
When anyone goes from death to life it happens at a point in time. If it is Lazarus come forth,[physically in Jn.11] or, Michael, repent and believe the gospel [spiritually] it happens at a point in time,it is not a just a learning about it, or just a mental process.
Once alive,our growth in grace and knowledge is an ongoing process. Paul was not ashamed of the gospel of God,for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth.

__________________
Anthony D'Arienzo
Sunday School Teacher
Hope Reformed Baptist Church:
Medford, N.Y.

A few years back, we had an excellent and memorable discussion here that largely relates to the issues being presently discussed, and which I would highly recommend reading:

Infant baptism and crisis conversions

Not at all brother. I'm all for hearing about it.

Yes, if this is what Matthew had in mind it's a great point, so obvious, yet so easy to miss (given the flesh). It's really idolatry: living for feelings rather than God's glory in Christ. Ironically, when we live for God's glory the feelings (as understood in our now / not-yet context) are a by-product.

Thanks bro.

Indeed. This reminds me of a quotation by J. I. Packer in his introduction to Owen's Death of Death. Referring to the "new" gospel and its relationship to surrounding elements (such as the conversion experience), he noted, "It fails to make men God-centered in their thoughts and God-fearing in their hearts because this is not primarily what it is trying to do. One way of stating the difference between it and the old gospel is to say that it is too exclusively concerned to be 'helpful' to man - to bring peace, comfort, happiness, satisfaction - and too little concerned to glorify God. The old gospel was 'helpful', too - more so, indeed, than is the new - but (so to speak) incidentally, for its first concern was always to give glory to God."

Marty, the Reformed and Puritan writers have a range of terminology which overlaps in this area, e.g., regeneration, effectual calling, conversion, repentance, sanctification, etc. If we take regeneration for that initial work of the Spirit in which man is passive and new life is breathed into him, then yes, it is appropriate to speak of a "point in time" in which this takes place; but this is as mysterious as the blowing of the wind, so that no person is able to tell when it actually takes place. But if we take conversion in the more strict sense of the turning of the man to God, and take into account also the Puritan teachings of "preparation" and "assurance," I doubt we can speak of a point in time in which this takes place. The most we can say is that it has a beginning, continues through life, and is completed when the elect soul goes to glory. The "continual" nature of this action is what we generally associate with sanctification, but the Puritans were insistent that sanctification is of the same nature as conversion. I could reference numerous Puritans on this, but knowing your predilection for Owen, I'll simply quote him as an example. The statement may be found in Works 3:325.

As to pastoral implications, I think the use of the Puritan terms, "preparation" and "assurance," show immediately the impact this kind of thinking has on practical growth. By using the means of grace, and exercising the graces of humility and diligence in them, men as it were make for themselves a new heart -- preparation. In maintaining the duties of faith and repentance, and examining oneself in these, men make their calling and election sure -- assurance. There is then no point at which the Christian lets go and lets God, or complacently rests on some divine action in the past. And, at the same time, all his actions have been wrought by God, by sovereign, irresistible grace, so that at no point can he say that he has converted himself.

Rich, I love what you say here. You are absolutely correct. From a pastoral standpoint, I have members of my church who were saved as adults and can remember when they had the "experience" of trusting Christ. Three years later, inevitably, they are telling me that the sometimes don't feel saved.

My response to them is not to look back at their conversion experience. My response is three-fold: 1) Trust in the promise of God that He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it. 2) Compare who you are now with who you were two years ago. Inevitably, you will see the grace of God at work in your life through increased holiness and deeper desire for God. 3) Even when you don't "feel" it, press on to maturity through continued repentance and faith.

Dear Matthew,

Thanks for the clear explanation. It makes eminent sense.

Just on this point, how would you see such an understanding of "assurance" meshing with, say, Col. 3:1-2 (and Rom. 6:1ff.):

Colo 3:1 "Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things."

Here Paul assumes a past experience (of union with Christ) which informs in the present how one should live. That is: live out who you really are (1 Cor. 5:7). This would assume a degree of assurance that something has happened in the past, which informs the present.

Blessings.

I am sure if you emailed him he would respond

__________________
Richard
CofE
UK

It would seem that if there is a past experience in these "positional aorists" the apostle uses, then it is the experience of the One for the many. This leads us to see that salvation in Christ is a complete break with the past and the establishment of something altogether new. The beauty of this manner of speaking is the way in which it imperceptibly takes the focus off of oneself and places it upon what Christ has done. But there are also implications for the one who has come to identify himself with that definitive salvation -- imperative implications. The result is that the assurance of personal possession is always stated in terms of manifestation: IF this is true, THEN this will evidence itself. And it is noticeable that the evidence is always stated in terms of a process, and is never seen as a product. This indicates that intention is paramount and perfection itself is only a goal, not a present attainment. In Phil. 3, we have the apostles own "experimental" view of it, where two points become clear. (1.) His own experiences are dross and Christ is all. (2.) He does not consider himself as having already attained, but always presses towards the mark.

Dear Matthew,

Thanks for your thoughts, they're great. I wonder, perhaps, if your explanation has gone just a little too far concerning past experience(s)?

Certainly Christ's experience is central. However, the words are since "you have been raised with Christ". There has to be some knowledge that the "you" has been united with Christ in the past. I might not be able to know when that actually happened, but I know is has happened, even if I don't feel like it in the present.

It's Calvin's idea of a "sure and certain knowledge of God's benevolence [...] in Christ" that then gives me the incentive to obey. We are no longer slaves to fear (Rom. 8:15).

Amen!

Yes, indeed!

I'm not sure I fully grasp what you're saying here. Paul's "experiences" in Phil. 3 concern his pre-conversion boastings, which he counts as rubbish.

At the beginning of Phil. 2 Paul actually points to past (subjective) experiences the Philippians have had, as an incentive for the present:

Phil 2:1 (NIV) If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose.

Thanks, Marty, for making me be precise.

I suppose I would go back to Col. 2:12, where the apostle established the point that they are raised with Christ, and stressed that it is through faith of the operation of God. It is sovereign, objective, unseen. The same would be true in Calvin's focus. By retaining the objective element you never get to that point where you do not feel like it in the present. Christ's death and resurrection are a ubiquitous reality. I don't doubt that believers have subjective encounters; but I maintain that the Holy Spirit always turns the attention of the believer to the objective reality of the person and work of Christ as the measure of all things. Our experience always falls short in some way, shape, or form.

I'm not sure that they are pre-conversion boastings up to ver. 9; but rather they are his confidences in the flesh, which even then he could have boasted in, if he had a mind to. But a true Christian has no confidence in the flesh, but rejoices in Christ Jesus. At any rate, Phil 3:10ff speaks of his present attainments, which he classifies as possessing a not-yet quality.

It's noteworthy that even in these Phil. 2 "experiences," there is something lacking in them which the apostle needs to address; and ultimately he points them yet again to Christ as the measure of all things, ver. 5ff.

Ok, great. I understand where you're coming from and I entirely agree. Indeed, in my own Christian life it's almost as if I've been forced to this position because other spiritualities just don't work. The objective reality of Christ's work is just wonderful! In fact, I'd better be careful because I might have an experience of joy right now thinking about it ...

Yes, of course. My point is not a complete denial of them--just putting them in their right place.

God bless you Matthew.

Blessings, Marty.

Inded, 'tis a truth I never tire of proclaiming. That so many Evangelicals restlessly seek temporary, therapeutic comfort in their emotional highs breaks my heart. The objective work of Christ is a bottomless well of comfort and motivation for me. I thirst not!