On a thread we were talking about Fee, who one brother described as more traditional Pentacostal rather than Charismatic. Look I am not a seminary Grad. so I get a little confussed on some semantics. What is the "line" between a Trinitarian Pentacostal and a Charismatic?

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et

As one converted in a Foursquare Church (Charismatic) and educated at a liberal arts college of the Assemblies of God (Pentecostal), there is a difference. It is not just of semantics, but is substantive. While both sets of church and their theologies agree that the "gifts of the Spirit" (i.e., tongues, prophecy) are valid and operative today, the difference is that Pentecostal theology says the evidence that one has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues, while Charismatic theology says speaking in tongues is an evidence.

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Rev. Daniel R. Hyde
Pastor, Oceanside United Reformed Church, Carlsbad/Oceanside, California
Th.M. candidate, Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary

Thank you that is helpful.

In this is a good general answer. I would be curious despite these distinctives how the two frameworks play out differently?

I don't know if I can back this up with printed proof but I am around a LOT of Pentecostals and a LOT of Charismatics and a difference that seems evident to me is

Pentecostal people are more 'works based' or rigid in certain rules and expectations than Charismatics who will speak of Grace incessantly.

It is a generalization I have discerned but others may surely have a different take.

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Richard H. King
Providence PCA
Lubbock, Texas
You know what my main problem is? I start things but rarely finish anyth...

If I am not mistaken their views of sanctification differ also. Pentecostals are usually holiness people and are not health and wealth motivated as much as Charismatics. A book on four views of sanctification by IVP discussed this. I hadn't looked at this for years.

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The orginal question, as I took it, was about the stated/official differences between Pentecostalism and Charismatic theology. While it may be true that some people you know have this difference, it is not based in official tenents of their faith, e.g., in the statements of faith of the Assemblies of God (Pentecostal) and Foursquare Church (Charismatic).

It's important that we do not broad-brush whole movements based on the experiences of a few. If this were the case, many Reformed churches could be called "works-based" because someone perceived their view of the Lord's Day, or their view of Christian liberty, etc. as works-oriented.

Actually....my question is out here so that I do NOT broadbrush.

That is an excellent point. I probably should remove my post because it is an impression of mine NOT written doctrine they officially adhere to. I didn't necessarily mean it to paint either in a bad way.

Giving my "alotted" bump...due to the fact I find this intresting and really want to see what the distinctives are. Really would like some feedback from those who were once either Charismatic or Pentacostal. I think for me the whole non-cessationist issue causes me to think there is little to distinguish them. BUT...I am not out to bash or broad-brush. I truly want to find that "line" that would seperate the two.

Also, there are Pentecostal denominations. "Charismatic" can refer to all kinds of independent and non-denominational churches that believe in the continuation of all spiritual gifts.

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Davidius
Husband of Emily
Member of All Saints Anglican Church - Chapel Hill (AMiA / Anglican Church of North America)
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German and Classics

True! This also adds to my confusion. (the Independents) not your response!

Yet more confusion: while Pentecostals are all in Pentecostal denominations, charismatics can be found in a great many other denominations that are not predominantly known for being charismatic. These denoms range from Roman Catholic through Anglican/Episcopalian, through Baptist and I suspect even Methodist churches down south of 49

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In Christ's love and service

Mr. Tim Cunningham,
BMus. (Trombone Performance), University of Toronto
Dip. CS, Regent College, Vancouver
Member, First Baptist Church
Vancouver, BC
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"I once sat in darkness, and waited for the moon to rise.
I once sat in darkness, and waited for the son to shine.
I once sat in darkness, when all the light I'd waited for was gone.
Then Jesus came, and now the only true light, ever, shines in me."
– John Deacon -

Well said! If you want to parse the differences historically, you might want to use the "three wave" typology popularized a few years back to describe the three waves of the Spirit's movement during the 20th century.

1. First Wave: Pentecostalism began (at least as a popular movement) out of the "Azuza St. Revival" in the first decade of the last century. It generally was associated with holiness groups that came out of a typically Weslyan background. Then, it solidified into several Pentecostal "denominations" such as the Assemblies of God which were generally Word-centered and at least somewhat fundamentalist in orientation.

2. Seond Wave: Charismatics were those who discovered the "charismatic gifts" (beginning in the late 1950s and 1960s) although they hailed from a diversity of backgrounds includiung mainline denominations such as Episcopal, UMC, PCUSA, etc. They were generally NOT fundamentalist and not nearly as sectarian as AG folks. Charismatics were generally sociologically more upscale, better educated, and happy to speak in tongues before enjoying a glass of wine or a cocktail. Characteristically, they were more experience centered, ecumenical, and expressive.

3. Third Wave: Signs and Wonders brought a recovery of the idea that the "Word preached in the power of the Holy Spirit" should be accompanied by signs of power to accredit the message. Associated with Church Growth pioneer C. Peter Wagner (one of my old seminary profs) and the late John Wimber, it finds expression in groups such as the Vineyard. It became popularized in the late 1970s and 1980s at Fuller Seminary in a class on "Signs and Wonders" where Rev. Wimber would demonstrate leg lengthening of legs, healing migrane headaches and the like. Ironically, Wimber died several years ago of a malignant cancer.

By definition, a Pentecostal belongs to one of several Pentecostal denominations. A Charismatic practices charismatic gifts in any number of denominational, non-denominational, or inter-denominational settings. While Pentecostals are nearly always Arminians, one could be a charismatic Roman Catholic, Calvinist, dispensationalist or Arminian. Pentecostal denotes a particular doctrinal approach and set of core beliefs; charismatic describes an experience. What makes Fee so interesting is that he claims to be an Assemblies of God Pentecostal who disputes some of the classic beliefs of the AG.

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Pentecostals are like the original Borg cube whereas Charismatics are all the denominations that have been assimilated into that way of thinking.....
Lecuetus

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An Elder, Harvest Reformed Church (RCUS),Minot, ND
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Si vis pacem, para bellum

....OK I was drinking coffee when I reached this post...and for the record I almost spewed it onto myelf laughing! I don't know why...the phrase original Borg cube.....just hit me me as funny....

May I encourage you to read Dallimore on E Irving. And here is a good article, albeit it is rather short. For something more substantial there is always N Needham, who never disappoints.

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Independent Reformed Baptist Church (NE England, nr. Durham)

Thank you! I will give 'em a look!

From the Preface by Wayne Grudem to "Are Miraculous Gifts For Today; Four Views":

I would be interested in opinions on Grudem's diffinitions as I am currently reading the book mentioned above.

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