I have a challenge for all you cessationists. Can you give me some concrete reasons for your positions other the standard ones which frankly don't seem plausible to me.
Please don't use II Tim 3:16 and sola scriptura.
Don't use the foundation of apostles and prophets.
and don't use I Cor. 13 about the ceasing of the gifts.
All those I can refute to my defense and so can most non-cessationists.

Many years ago I heard one argument that was different and very challenging. I have yet to see that argument here.
So my challenge is to see who will come up with this argument or a better one.

My goal is for you who differ to use better reasoning to defend your position.

__________________
Jonathan Qualls
member
christ community PCA
Clearwater, FL

Seems like you've already got your mind made up!

__________________
Ian Brown
Attending Messiah's Covenant Community Church.
Student at Hunter College CUNY

maybe, I just believe its the biblical view just as I do the doctrines of grace.

Well, since you never answered this in the other thread, and don't have it in your "list" above, what do you make of Deuteronomy 18:20 (ESV): "But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die." Do you think that today, you could ever be certain enough that your word is commanded from God so as to meet the criteria of that passage?

__________________
Chris


A passion to know and reflect Christ by living and demonstrating the truth and richness of the historic Reformed faith

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Christopher Blum
Member of Trinity Presbyterian Church of Northern Kentucky (PCA) in Burlington, KY

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I have a word from the Lord that you are wrong.

__________________
Fred Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

That's not the point. You aren't interested in hearing arguments based on certain proof texts. Are you trying to teach cessationists (as you seemed to say in your first post) or are you trying to dialogue with them. There's a tangible difference!

Furthermore, what kind of gifts do you believe are in effect today? No cessationist that I know of believes that all the gifts that the Holy Spirit gives to the church have ceased. I think the charismatic/third-wave view on the spiritual gifts is too narrow.

First of all, I have a problem with any one using "thus saying the Lord" because all prophetic utterance is subjective.
Now if someone gives a word they say comes from God so that he predicts something and proven false should die.
However a prophet can be mistaken and not die. Nathan said to David to build the temple, He was mistaken because he came back with a different word from the Lord. Yes, there are false prophets today as well as false teachers. But the verse you are quoting says nothing about cesationism. It talks about false prophets.

Actually no prophetic utterance is subjective. That is the essence of prophecy - man speaks FOR God. That is why the formulaic "thus says the Lord" occurs so many times. When Nathan spoke to David about the temple, he was clearly not prophesying. The non-cessationist must prove that the authoritative word of God comes still to individual men outside of Scripture - if it is not authoritative, it is neither from God nor prophecy. If it is not prophecy, then prophecy has ceased. if prophecy, then it must meet the test of Deuteronomy 18.

I believe all the gifts of the Spirit are still for today as they were in the first century. I don't think the Third Wave or charismatic movement is too narrow although they would be better if they would add calvinistic and covenantal postmillenialism to their theology.

hey fred,
not all prophecy is the same. not all prophecy is at the same level as scripture. There are many prophecies that went on that are not recorded in the Bible. Yes prophecy is speaking for God, but today it must conform with scripture. Prophecies must be tested. It is subjective in that how does one know if it is really from the Spirit or from their own mind.
However what you are saying is just not convincing.
Come up with a better argument.

Jonathan,

Sorry, but your "refutations" are not very convincing. I have yet to see any prophecy from God that was optional. The fact that there was special revelation that was not Scripture is completely beside the point, and no cessationist would ever argue for a complete equivalency of Scripture and special revelation. The cessationist WCF does not argue this.

You are asking the cessationist to try and prove a negative, and I'm not going to bite. Either new prophecy does not add anything to Scripture, and hence it is useless, or it does add something to Scripture, and hence the non-cessationist needs to provide some kind of iron clad objective criteria (like Deut 18) for testing the prophecy, or else we have tyranny of the porphet. "Don't marry her" "why?" "God told me you should not"

Unless you are willing to completely jettison the doctrine of the sufficiency of Scripture, non-cessationism is not an option.

Prophecy is given now as it was then in corinth, etc to individual churches or individuals themselves. My point is that I want to hear better arguments. They are out there. I want to see if anyone can come up with the argument I'm looking for before I tell you what it is.

Jonathan,

You keep using the fact that not all biblical prophecy was included in the canon as evidence that there are different types of prophecy, and then make the jump that some prophecy is thus subjective (and likewise is somehow exempt from Deut. 18). I'm not doing this for the sake of being repetitive, but there is a question I asked you in another thread that was never answered that applies perfectly to this issue:

I think your answer to that question will help clarify a lot of what we are all talking about (from both sides).

That statement makes the cessationist point by itself. The purpose of biblical prophecy is to instruct the Church. So if the only way you can know the above distinction is by seeing if a so-called prophecy is backed up by some Scripture, then of what use is that prophecy at all beyond what the Scripture alone gives us?

What's the point of keeping the "better argument" a secret? Is this a game or a discussion?

__________________
Andrew

I think the New Testatment gives very little instruction on exactly how the gifts are to operate in the Church because they weren't an on going occurance in the Churches. At some point I believe within the life of the Apostles the common occurances ceased. Even the Apostle Paul left someone behind because he was sick, why didn't Paul heal him, if the gifts were still in common use? Paul instructs Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach, a common medicinal use for wine, why didn't the Apostle just give Timothy a thus saith the Lord, and tell Timothy he was healed? I think it was because Paul realized by that time that the gifts were passing away.
I think if you will take a close look at the N.T. Epistles they seem to focus on our relationship to Christ and to one another, and very little on the miraculous gifts.

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

A word from Mr. Calvin
It is contrary to God's will for men to neglect scripture and seek fresh revelations.

There are some people who proudly claim to be led by the Holy Spirit. These despise the people who cling to the "dead and killing letter". If they claim to be led by the Spirit of God, it is foolish to think this revelation would be any different from that given to the apostles and prophets who wrote the Word of God.

Paul had once been caught up to the third heaven. He had a right, if anyone had, to claim that he had a special revelation, but he still used scripture and encouraged Timothy to do so. He honours scripture in saying it is "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" (II Timothy 3:16,17).

When our Lord promised his Holy Spirit, he said he would be one who would not speak of himself, but call to remembrance what Christ himself had taught by spoken words. So the promised Spirit will not give new, unheard-of revelations. He will confirm in our hearts the very same doctrine which the gospel of Christ has given us.

Let this be clear. Those who wish to receive profit and blessing from the Spirit of God must be diligent in reading scripture and in listening to its voice.

To people who say it is an indignity for the Spirit of God who is above all things to be subject to scripture, you may reply that it is no dishonour to the Spirit to be consistent with himself. He is the author of scripture and he cannot change.

To say that those who adhere to the scripture are in bondage to the "killing letter" is playing with words. When Paul said that the letter kills (II Corinthians 3:6) he was opposing false apostles who still clung to the law and would not accept God's new law of grace through Christ. The law does kill when it is separated from the grace of Christ. When it is powerfully impressed on the heart by the Spirit and sets forth Christ, it is the Word of Life.

Real reverence for the Word takes possession of our hearts when the light of the Spirit enables us to see God in the scriptures; and on the other hand, we welcome without fear of' delusion that Spirit which we recognise by his likeness to his own Word.

__________________
Sean Jones
Covenant Presbyterian Church OPC
Fort Worth Texas

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the Word of Truth.
2Timothy 2:15

Good points, Sean. Robertson points out in his book the undeniable decline of mention of the revelatory and miraculous gifts in Paul's later-dated epistles, versus the great emphasis placed on them in his earlier ones.

B.B. Warfield's book Counterfeit Miracles is a good resource on this subject.

I need to reread Warfield it has been probaly ten years or so since I read it.

I grew in and around the Pentecostal movement and the charismatic movement. Thier considerations for subjective prophetic interpreation is ludicrous to the max. Thier fundamental theological bent is neo-orthodox and existential, not to mention they are cup bearers for men like Hegel and Kant. If you really want to see the arguments for Pentecostalism and charismata evolve, then start pre-Enlightenment, and read a good historical theology overview. It pegs their movement to the hilt. If you have not read Bruner's "Theology of the Holy Spirit" that is the work which destroys Third Wave, Charismatic, Pentecostal, Holiness, etc, theology.

New prophecy is either twofold:

Either it adds to the Bible and is authoritatively binding every time (as it was in the OT and the NT in every instance), thus adding to the Scripture; or it is completely useless since what is stated "cannot contradict Scripture" (i.e. there would be no need for it - just read the bible).

Scripture in Pentecoastalism and Charismania is not sufficient. It is actually, subjectively dealt with which is immediately impacted by the Romantic Period and the Enlightement. Stepping back for 5 seconds at the historical church see this, and the relaity that EVERY TIME charimata "popped up", it was by heretical sects like the Montantists, or Zwickau prophets, in which it emerged.

When I was in Bible college, another Calvinistic student and myself asked the President of the College why we follow the Montantists (the book we were using for the class stated that Pentecostalism follows Montanist in thier understanding of the HS) and he said, "Because that is what our denomination teaches." I've read all the dubious exegesis out there by these guys. If anyone has something "New" to offer - let it ride.

__________________
C. Matthew McMahon, Ph.D. (Pot hole Digger)
John 5:39, "...search the Scriptures..."

Dr. C. Matthew McMahon.com, www.apuritansmind.com and www.puritanpublications.com
Member - Christ Presbyterian Church

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Bingo.

Really? Where can I find an apostle? Why do all the "gifts" we see today also resemble pagan practices? Why is it no one comes to a greater understanding of sin and God's holiness from any of these experiences? Why can't any charasmatic explain to me the meaning of their experiences? Why is it that each time I participated in these "worship" services I felt numb? Is that the Holy Spirit?

I could keep going on and on with my questions. The fact of the matter is this: no one can come up with a good explanation/exegesis on why the charasmatic gifts are for today. You'd think God would take advantage of these gifts with the few faithful ministers we have to strengthen the body...yet it's the charlatons that have these "gifts".

We saw one once, well at least that is what he claimed yet he didn't manifest any of the signs of an Apostle. I told my son to watch to see if we saw any, and we didn't see one sign, so I told him you shouldn't listen to people like that.

Bruner? What's his full name, I want to find that book!

__________________
The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

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Fredrick Dale Bruner I think.

I'm back. Kudos to irishcat and webmaster. However, none of these are going to make a dent into a died in the wool charismatic like me. The one argument I heard which made me really think was the covenantal argument from Bob Burridge (you can find his articles on monergism) at his thursday night Bible study many years ago.
It goes like this:
If one looks at the times of great supernatural events in scripture you will find they occur when a major covenant is being enacted. In Genesis, Exodus, Kings, Gospels, and Acts. Miraculous occurances are their to show God's covenant being enacted.

This is the best argument I've heard for cessationism, and one most charismatics have never heard and will have a hard time refuting.
However, I am a die hard charismatic and probably always will be.

Really? Where can I find an apostle?
THEY EXIST EVERYWHERE, EVEN IN YOUR CHURCH. AN APOSTLE IS ONE WHO IS SENT. SOME CALL THEM MISSIONARIES, SOME CHURCH PLANTERS OR SOME WHO IS THE HEAD OF SEVERAL CHURCHES.
Why do all the "gifts" we see today also resemble pagan practices?
HOW ARE THEY PAGAN?
Why is it no one comes to a greater understanding of sin and God's holiness from any of these experiences?
IT HAPPENS TO ME ALL THE TIME
Why can't any charasmatic explain to me the meaning of their experiences?
I CAN TELL YOU THAT I HAVE WITNESSED THINGS THAT HAD TO COME FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Why is it that each time I participated in these "worship" services I felt numb? Is that the Holy Spirit?
I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE YOUR HEART IS NOT WILLING TO ENTER IN BECAUSE YOU ARE SO AGAINST IT.

I could keep going on and on with my questions. The fact of the matter is this: no one can come up with a good explanation/exegesis on why the charasmatic gifts are for today. You'd think God would take advantage of these gifts with the few faithful ministers we have to strengthen the body...yet it's the charlatons that have these "gifts".

Jonathan, you keep simply saying that you don't find our arguments convincing, yet you still refuse to deal with most of them.

ok chris I will deal with them, of course you may not like my answers
the scriptures that you bring up to prove cessationism are either out of context or have nothing to do with cessaitionism.
I just don't believe that the prophecies today are for all christians everywhere. those messages are in scripture. the ones to day are for edification and correction of individual churches or people. I seen people prophecy things they could not have known. this brought healing to individuals and churches. I have seen miracles that only could come from God. How does someone explain these away, I can't.
Now, do I approve of everything that goes on in these churches? of course not. I have problems with some of the crazy things that go on in the name of the Spirit. That is why they need reformed theology to balance them out.
Too much is disorderly (like the corinthians) and needs Biblical guidelines and restrictions. I understand why so many are turned off by it, however I find these gifts in the Bible and I believe that they can't be discarded. I do not want to quench the Spirit. and misuse and abuse in these services does not mean disuse or its pagan.

You said,

But again,

the answer is 1) they are not on the same level as scripture

That is the precise claim that I have yet to see supported from Scripture in the least. In order to hold onto the revelatory gifts today, charismatics have to assert this two-tiered view of prophecy, which is completely foreign to any of the prophecy spoken of anywhere in the Bible. Show me one single instance in the Bible where a "prophecy" (or a message in tongues, since tongues are just prophecy in other languages) or any revelatory words from God were presented as having a subjective element, or treated as less than binding. Where is there ever a single distinguishment made in Scripture that excuses any prophetic words as being less than needing to meet the standard of Deut. 18?

As a former pentecostal (I spoke in tongues, prophesied, prayed for healing "saw" miracles), my experience has been that the Pentecostal/Charismatic/Third-Waver once they have set up their intellectual trenches will not respond to argumentation. Fred, Paul, and Chris I think your wasting your time. Ultimately the "gift-user" has too many so-called miraculous experiences, and those miracles are ear plugs.

As the scriptures tell us "Satan comes as an angel of light". The mere suggestion that their experiences could be either illusion or deception approaches blasphemy for the Charismatic. Their experiences, despite their strident denial, do act as a seperate book of God for them.

[Edited on 14-12-2004 by Ianterrell]

That is the real Issue Ian. I am a former Charismatic and the reasoninng is purely subjective and experiential. Not Scriptural.

[Edited on 14-12-2004 by Irishcat922]

Ian is right. I go back and forth with my sister all the time on this. I also was raised in a charismatic church. I attended more than anyone in my family and was heavily involved in youth group and missions etc. for 27 years. You cannot convince these people. They believe that they will spiritually discern everything. So if they are in error as they are seeking God they believe they will discern that. So basically the believe that they will subjectively know if they are in error for subjectively trying to hear from the Holy Spirit. The other thing that will make it hard for them to see their error is their pride. If they have these spiritual experiences it strokes their pride and they feel more spiritual. They believe that getting closer to God means they have more of these "experiences." Its a one-up-manship type of thing also. I would never trust myself to hear from the HS correctly. I would not trust myself because I know my sinful nature. In my sisters case she also believes that the HS is at her beck and call and is just fawning all over waiting to comfort her or encourage her. Not that she is supposed to have faith and rest in God's promises. I would have argued much like Heavyq 10 years ago I think. I don't know if God just showed me or what. When I understood the doctrines of grace it just revealed to me the character of God and I see now that He would not work in such a willy nilly way. I think that is what got me. The Holy Spirit is not here to stroke my pride, He reveals God to me through the scriptures and He is sanctifying me day by day through a better understanding of the scriptures.


Heavyq I think IrishCat already showed you what scripture says is responsible for correction and edification. 2 Tim 3:16-17.

16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17. That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

I would personally never trust a person who had a word from the Lord for me. I would just go to the scriptures. So why this extra step? I also witnessed during my 27 years in a charismatic church alot of infighting and relationalship issues surrounding certain people thought they had gifts and others thinking they were full of it or full of themselves. It was not edifying at all. The scriptures are.

__________________
Traci
Lynnwood OPC
"I have taken all my good deeds, and all my bad deeds, and cast them through each other in a heap before the Lord, and fled from both, and betaken myself to the Lord Jesus Christ, and in him I have sweet peace."--David Dickson

Why the extra step? Honestly? The charismatic movement as a whole is the direct birth child of the existential and neo-orthodox movement. It is a shift away from theology, towards subjective interpretation. The charismatic movement has never, at any time, in any of thier denominational affiliates, dealt with that aspect of their theogy.

Bigheavyq-

The miraculous events at those intervals is really more of an observation than an argument (though it is true). But one can never continue to say "Just because" I will always be a charismatic.

Thus far, you have not exegetically interacted with anything on this thread, but have simply opinionated the ideas you hold. We should, as instructed, be able to give an answer....

Do you have anything elsewhere written? Or some other source to appeal to?

"Why can't any charasmatic explain to me the meaning of their experiences?
I CAN TELL YOU THAT I HAVE WITNESSED THINGS THAT HAD TO COME FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT."

What things have you witnessed? And how can you be certain they are from the Holy Spirit?

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

Any other thoughts from charismatics who might be reading this thread?

Most reformed "charasmatics" I have met, including myself, are only that for a short time. It is a transitional phase as they learn to read the Bible correctly and understand teh true nature of teh role of the Holy Spirit and teh Scriptures in our lives. I suspect it is the same with BHQ. Until one is willing to reexamine their experiences in light of Scripture, rather than redefining Scripture by their experiences, they've hit a major speed bump in their sanctification and growth. That's how it was for me, and it sounds similar with the other ex-charasmatics here too.

__________________
Patrick
MDiv, RTS Jackson
Pastor, Grace Presbyterian Church (OPC), Lisbon, NY

"He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.
"Let us not please ourselves that we have deep understandings, but let us shew our understandings by our practice." Richard Sibbes

Good Point Matt. I think even Barth would be shocked at the result of his teaching.