Thread: Cessationists

Who here is a Cessastionist, who is not, and who is undecided (in regards to the "sign gifts" of the Spirit). And Biblical evidence is always welcomed.

(Mods, if there is a way to add a poll to this, I would appreciate it)

I thought you had to be to be on the PB...
Was I mistaken?

Originally Posted by Unashamed 116

Who here is a Cessastionist, who is not, and who is undecided (in regards to the "sign gifts" of the Spirit). And Biblical evidence is always welcomed.

(Mods, if there is a way to add a poll to this, I would appreciate it)

Quote:
Originally Posted by reformedminister View Post
1 Corinthians 13:8-13 is usually used to teach that sign gifts have ceased, usually pointing to the Bible as being "that which is perfect is come" (v. 10). Many Reformed scholars would disagree with this, including R. C. Sproul. "That which is perfect" is in reference to the eternal age. There is no Scripture that teaches that sign gifts will cease. However, it is commonly held that they were important in the apostolic age, for the spreading of the gospel and the establishing of the Church. The sign gifts authenticated the apostolic message, as well as the apostles.
I respectfully disagree. I believe that the passage, contextually, grammatically, and theologically does say that the the perfect thing which Paul has in mind is in fact the completed canon of the Scriptures.

1 Corinthians 13:8-12
The context of this passage is that concerning the ignorance of the Christians in the church at Corinth regarding the relationship between gifts and graces. Paul reminds them that they can have extraordinary, phenomenal gifts and yet be destitute of love and thus be lost in their sins (vss. 1-3).
“He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.” ( 1 John 4:8)

Paul states at the end of the chapter in verse 13 that “love is the greatest”. Why is love the greatest? Because love never fails. Love will accompany you all the way into the eternal state. Not so with all the flashy phenomenal gifts that they were desiring.

1 Corinthians 13: 8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
1 Corinthians 13: 8 ~H avga,ph ouvde,pote evkpi,pteiÅ ei;te de. profhtei/ai katarghqh,sontai\ ei;te glw/ssai pau,sontai\ ei;te gnw/sij katarghqh,setai

Verse eight contains a triad __ prophecy, tongues, and knowledge __ which are contrasted with another triad in verse thirteen __ faith, hope, and love. The second triad consists of things that remain, whereas the first triad consists of things that cease, fail, or vanish away.

With what are faith, hope, and love contrasted? They are contrasted with prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. It should be apparent that if we make both of these triads continue throughout this present age until Christ returns then the apostle’s intended contrast is destroyed!
Paul says that love never fails [ evkpi,ptw ] the word means to fall down from or out of. So the meaning is that Love will never fall from its exalted position.
• But prophecies (the extraordinary gift) shall be katarge,w “reduced to inactivity”.
• Tongues shall pau,w “stop, cease, leave off”. Compare the use of the word in Heb. 10:2 and in 1Pet 4:1.
• Knowledge likewise shall be katarge,w “reduced to inactivity”. In this context just what knowledge is Paul talking about? Not spiritual and divine knowledge in general for surely there will be such knowledge hereafter in heaven as well as now on earth, and vastly more … knowledge of God, Christ, and spiritual things shall not vanish away but shall gloriously increase. By the phrase ‘knowledge shall pass away’ is meant a particular miraculous gift (see 1Cor 12:8) that was in operation in the Church of God in those days.

This knowledge was a Revelatory gift, i.e. it involved revealing directly to the possessor of the gift the mind and will of God. This is evidenced by its association with prophecy and tongues.

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
9 evk me,rouj ga,r ginw,skomen kai. evk me,rouj profhteu,omen

Paul says that we know, literally “we are presently knowing” evk me,rouj “out of that which is partial” or “out of a portion of the whole.” Knowledge and prophecy were then coming forth in the period of Partial Revelation as contrasted with Completed Revelation as is seen in the following verses.
10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
10 o[tan de. e;lqh| to. te,leion to,te to. evk me,rouj katarghqh,setai

“But” says Paul by way of contrast “when comes that which is perfect …” . This phrase to. te,leion that which is perfect is pivotal to the interpretation of the passage. The two Greek words are Neuter in gender and should be rendered the perfect thing. Whatever Paul had in mind when he wrote to. te,leion it was, in its grammatical identity something neuter. If he had in mind Christ he would no doubt have written the masculine o` te,leioj He who is perfect . If what he was referring to was Christ’s return he would have written the feminine h` telei,a as in the feminine th/| parousi,a| “the coming of our Lord” (1Thess 5:23). Whatever Paul did have in mind he alludes to it with the neuter to. te,leion that perfect thing.
So what is that perfect thing? The meaning of to. te,leion is that which is brought to its end; finished; wanting nothing necessary to completeness; perfect.

Again the question comes: what is that perfect, that completed thing that the apostle was pointing to? It must be something apposite and juxtaposed to that which is partial mentioned in the previous verse. It is Revelatory, and since the category of the partial is Revelation then the category of the complete must be Revelation.
That Perfect Thing is the completed, inscripturated Revelation; the finished Word of God in both the Old and New Testaments.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
11 o[te h;mhn nh,pioj w`j nh,pioj evla,loun w`j nh,pioj evfro,noun w`j nh,pioj\ evlogizo,mhn o[te de, ge,gona avnh,r kath,rghka ta. tou/ nhpi,ou
Paul here, by way of illustration, administers a rebuke to the Corinthians. They have been behaving childishly in regard to the Extraordinary Gifts in general and Speaking in Tongues in particular. He illustrates this by saying that when he was a child he spoke, understood, and thought as a child, i.e. childlishly!

When however, “he became ge,gona [perfect tense] a man ” avnh,r that is, he completely entered manhood, he remained a man and did not return to childhood. He put away childish things. So too he is telling the Corinthians that the Church would one day reach Revelatory maturity and never return to childhood again.

It is a sign of spiritual childishness to want to go back to the time of the Church’s childishness. The time of the church’s childishness was the time of the extraordinary phenomenal gifts!

12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
12 ble,pomen ga.r a;rti di evso,ptrou evn aivni,gmati to,te de. pro,swpon pro.j pro,swpon\ a;rti ginw,skw evk me,rouj to,te de. evpignw,somai kaqw.j kai. evpegnw,sqhn

Paul gives explanation here saying “For” or “Because” “we see now, at this present time, by means of a mirror [e;soptron _ a piece of highly polished metal ] dimly { aivni,gmati literally, in an enigma, indistinctly}…

Paul’s point is that in their day the Corinthians, along with all other believers, had an uncompleted Bible; a partially polished metal shield in which they could dimly behold themselves. James had already taken up the imagery of a mirror in reference to the Word of God saying in chapter One and verse Twenty-three of his epistle “For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror e;soptron .

Paul again takes up this same imagery, although he employs a synonym of e;soptron in his second epistle to this same Corinthian church saying:

14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

So here in (13:12) Paul is showing them that in this era of partially completed revelation they see things dimly; they know things out of a part of an as yet uncompleted whole. But he points this out in order to bring out the contrast. This partiality and dimness have continued up to their present time, but….
[
B]Contrast relative to Time[/B]
“but then …” to,te When? When that perfect thing i.e. the completed Scriptures have come. The Corinthians were seeing in their Hebrew bibles dimly, but then to,te face to face pro,swpon pro.j pro,swpon

Contrast relative to Quality
“face to face” How? Clearly as contrasted with dimly.
This phrase “face to face” has been popularly interpreted to mean the beholding God by the saints in glory. But the phrase as used in Scripture never refers to that glorious event. Rather the biblical usage consistently refers to the clear propositional revelation of the Word of God as contrasted with the less clear revelation of visions and dreams.

Numbers 12:6 Then He said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, make Myself known to him in a vision; I speak to him in a dream. 7 Not so with My servant Moses; He is faithful in all My house. 8 I speak with him face to face, Even plainly, and not in dark sayings; And he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant Moses?"
See also __ Exodus 33:9-11, 18-23; Deuteronomy 5:1-4

Thus Paul tells the Corinthians that then, when that perfect, completed thing has come their knowing shall no longer be dim but shall possess the precision that comes from the clear propositional revelation of God’s Word inscripturated and preserved to the Church to the end of the age.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
13 nuni. de. me,nei pi,stij evlpi,j avga,ph ta. tri,a tau/ta\ mei,zwn de. tou,twn h` avga,ph

Even though the phenomenal gifts of prophecy (direct revelation from God), tongues (languages known without being learned), and knowledge (intelligence never acquired by study) would not continue to abide in the Church throughout this age, and at the end of the age faith becomes sight (2Cor 5:6-7) and hope becomes fulfillment (Rom 8:22-25), nevertheless Love continues throughout eternity.

Cautious.

You may find helpful doing a search (upper right) on this topic. There have been several threads on this recently.

The question might be phrased, "What is the purpose of two or three of the spiritual gifts mentioned in I Corinthians 12:1-14 in light of the completion of Scripture?"

"Does new revelation, on a par equal to or above that of Scripture, ordinarily come outside of Scripture, in light of the completion of Scripture?"

Looking at it from these standpoints may be helpful in understanding this, and discerning it from standard charismatic/pentecostal doctrine or practice in this generation.

Originally Posted by Unashamed 116

Who here is a Cessastionist, who is not, and who is undecided (in regards to the "sign gifts" of the Spirit). And Biblical evidence is always welcomed.

(Mods, if there is a way to add a poll to this, I would appreciate it)

I am undecided on some things because of some mircles that happened to me but Cessationist on other things

I think the dominant position on the PB is a so-called "99% cessationist": basically cessationist, but we don't deny that the Holy Spirit might impart miraculous gifts in some rare situations, such as missionary activity in some jungle somewhere.

My usual offer is that you can speak in tongues, if I get to interpret.

Originally Posted by Unashamed 116

Who here is a Cessastionist, who is not, and who is undecided (in regards to the "sign gifts" of the Spirit). And Biblical evidence is always welcomed.

(Mods, if there is a way to add a poll to this, I would appreciate it)

Done! (But, yeah, this poll has been done many times)

Originally Posted by Confessor

I think the dominant position on the PB is a so-called "99% cessationist": basically cessationist, but we don't deny that the Holy Spirit might impart miraculous gifts in some rare situations, such as missionary activity in some jungle somewhere.

The Confessional view on Cessationism is not that God's Providence ceases working in extraordinary ways but that the Apostolic gifts referenced in the Scriptures had a purpose which has not ceased given the fullness of Revelation.

A basic defense of Cessationism is 2 Peter 1:19 where Peter notes that the Revelation we possess in the Word is more sure than even the Revelation that John and he received on the Mount of Transfiguration.

Hebrews 1 further notes a progress of Revelation from various methods that were more obscure and mysterious (dreams, visions, etc) to what we now have in the fullness of Revelation.

Attempts to bring these Apostolic gifts of Prophecy and Tongues forward are that they ultimately fail on the issue of clarity. Proponents argue they operate differently in the NT Church and those that don't go off the deep end completely are left with "Revelation" that is difficult to interpret at best, which would be a step backward in the progression of Redemption.

As for those holding to a non-Cessationist view, they are not barred from participation on the board but they may not advocate this position. I am convinced the view owes more to syncretism with Pagan forms of religion than with Scripture.

I am very much a cessastionist, but if you happen upon a man who can perform miracles and heal people, send him my way.

Originally Posted by Confessor

I think the dominant position on the PB is a so-called "99% cessationist": basically cessationist, but we don't deny that the Holy Spirit might impart miraculous gifts in some rare situations, such as missionary activity in some jungle somewhere.

In such situations, if they are indeed genuine, it seems that a miracle takes place, but not that a gift is given to an individual to exercise at will. This is distinctly different than what we see in the early church, where men were given specific gifts, mostly revelatory and all for confirmation and service to others.

Semper Fidelis

The Confessional view on Cessationism is not that God's Providence ceases working in extraordinary ways but that the Apostolic gifts referenced in the Scriptures had a purpose which has not ceased given the fullness of Revelation.

If I'm understanding correctly, you mean a purpose that has ceased, been fulfilled in light of the completed canon of Scripture, that is, the faith once and for all delivered unto the saints?

Jude 1:3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Undecided so I will have to make up my mind about it

Here is a good book on the subject.

Perspectives on Pentecost by Richard Gaffin

It depends where you are geographically. Stateside, cessationism is realistic.

My answer changes depending on the definition of Cessationism that the person asking hold to.

I lost... ah, my Honda.

Originally Posted by Leslie

It depends where you are geographically. Stateside, cessationism is realistic.

Are people receiving inspired, inerrant, and infallible "word's" from the Lord over seas?

I've heard this claim before and I'm not sure of what to make of it. Is God still sending Apostles and Prophets? Do other countries have Isaias and Pauls working in the church? Do you just mean prayers are being answered for healing and provision?

If you find someone that has the gift of healing, please send them into the nearest hospital and have them empty it out. Don't settle for "they don't have faith". The apostles healed those that had no idea of what was about to happen. Those that are dead cannot be exercising faith (or if they are, everyone that has died must have perfect faith).

In any case, those that claim healing ought to have the faith to empty out the hospitals. Send me no friends of Job to say how much a sinner a person is if the "healer" cannot heal the sick.

Originally Posted by Rich Koster

... depending on the definition of Cessationism that the person asking hold to.

Perhaps we could get some knowledgeable Puritans to define the different types of cessationism?

Originally Posted by TheocraticMonarchist

Originally Posted by Leslie

It depends where you are geographically. Stateside, cessationism is realistic.

Are people receiving inspired, inerrant, and infallible "word's" from the Lord over seas?

I've heard this claim before and I'm not sure of what to make of it. Is God still sending Apostles and Prophets? Do other countries have Isaias and Pauls working in the church? Do you just mean prayers are being answered for healing and provision?

I'd like to answer but am not permitted to do so.

Originally Posted by Leslie

Originally Posted by TheocraticMonarchist

Originally Posted by Leslie

It depends where you are geographically. Stateside, cessationism is realistic.

Are people receiving inspired, inerrant, and infallible "word's" from the Lord over seas?

I've heard this claim before and I'm not sure of what to make of it. Is God still sending Apostles and Prophets? Do other countries have Isaias and Pauls working in the church? Do you just mean prayers are being answered for healing and provision?

I'd like to answer but am not permitted to do so.

I don't understand

Originally Posted by TheocraticMonarchist

Originally Posted by Leslie

Originally Posted by TheocraticMonarchist

Are people receiving inspired, inerrant, and infallible "word's" from the Lord over seas?

I've heard this claim before and I'm not sure of what to make of it. Is God still sending Apostles and Prophets? Do other countries have Isaias and Pauls working in the church? Do you just mean prayers are being answered for healing and provision?

I'd like to answer but am not permitted to do so.

I don't understand

I think she would like to answer you but that would mean advocating a non-cessationist position which is barred from the board.

Originally Posted by jpfrench81

Originally Posted by TheocraticMonarchist

Originally Posted by Leslie

I'd like to answer but am not permitted to do so.

I don't understand

I think she would like to answer you but that would mean advocating a non-cessationist position which is barred from the board.

And that is why there is no point to this poll. There are other boards for this kind of discussion.