Where do you stand? Why? Please post if interested.

ALSO: to those of you who Posted on the previous one...sorry, I had to delete it because I messed up the voting dealy whopper up. Please re-post. I apologize for any inconvenience.

[Edited on 3-26-2004 by joshua]

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
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Joshua,

I hold to a cessationist belief. Jesus gave his apostles certain gifts that were to be sign gifts to authenticate their authority and apsostleship, including prophecy, tongues, healing, raising the dead, etc. Those gifts were discontinued when the canon of scripture was complete, because we now have a more sure word of prophecy, God's Holy Word.

The Greeks sought after wisdom, but the Jews required a sign to believe.

Brent

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Brent Hebert
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One of the best books containing info on this subject is Edwards' "Charity and its Fruits". Its an exposition of 1 Cor. 13 that deals with this subject for a whole chapter in classic Edwardian style.

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I'd say I'm a cessationist. I believe that the sign gifts are gone, but God still does miracles. Speaking in foreign languages (tongues) and prophecy can still happen as a miracle of God, but I think this is rare. Also, if it happens, I think it happens to bring people to repentance and faith (missionaries in foreign countries, and things like that).

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"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God"-- Ephesians 2:8

Matthew, could you give some brief thoughts on such? As I know SS (Peru) is a non-cessationist.

Cessationist

Why?
1) Signs and wonders were "signs of the apostles" (2 Cor. 12:11-12)
2) These signs were meant to "confirm" the gospel the apostle's preached and authenticate their witness (Mark 16:14-20, Hebrews 1:1-2, 2:1-4)
3) There are no more apostles because there are none who could fit the requirments (Acts 1:21-22, 1 Cor. 15:1-9)

Therefore, these gifts are no longer needed. They have served their purpose. We have and preach the confirmed message which was once for all given to the saints.

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Patrick
OPC
MDiv, RTS Jackson.

"He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.

Any of you other fine people care to "poll"erize and comment?

I voted Cessationist. I think Patrick's post is a good summary of my reasons.

1 Corinthians 13:10 is probably the main verse that I've always been taught speaks of the cessation of the sign gifts.

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Does anybody that understands Greek have any insights into what the first "that" in verse 10 refers to. I've always heard that its in the neuter person and therefore can't refer to the return of Jesus so it most likely refers to the completion of canon. I've also heard from others that it could refer to Christ's kingdom, and other things. What think ye?

Bob

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Bob Howes
Framingham, MA

A reoccurring thought:

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Yeah, it's pretty safe to say I'm Cessationist. I read MacArthur's [u:3ea134ef59]The Charasmatics[/u:3ea134ef59] several years ago...I thought it was great.

[quote:eb8b48f97f][i:eb8b48f97f]Originally posted by puritansailor[/i:eb8b48f97f]
Cessationist

Why?
1) Signs and wonders were "signs of the apostles" (2 Cor. 12:11-12)
2) These signs were meant to "confirm" the gospel the apostle's preached and authenticate their witness (Mark 16:14-20, Hebrews 1:1-2, 2:1-4)
3) There are no more apostles because there are none who could fit the requirments (Acts 1:21-22, 1 Cor. 15:1-9)

Therefore, these gifts are no longer needed. They have served their purpose. We have and preach the confirmed message which was once for all given to the saints. [/quote:eb8b48f97f]

:thumbup: :thumbup:

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Bryan Maes (on Facebook)
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There is a booklet entitled, "The Glorious Foundation of Christ" by pastor Jim West. The subtitle is "The missing clincher arguent in the tongues debate". West ties tongues to prophecy, and biblically demonstates that the foundation of the Church can only be laid once (and that was during the Apostolic era). The booklet is about 60 pages. You can order a copy from:
Covenant Reformed Church
2020 16th avenue
Sacramento, California
95822
(916) 451-1190
email: jimwest@jps.net

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I voted non-cessationist because the cessationist position, as I understand it, does not account for the instances of "predictions" & tongues that do still occur.

Either these instances are delusions in the minds of those to whom they are given, are complete fabrications, or are from the devil (I really hate that face; but you can't not use it), if they are not from the Lord. Which of these things would cessationists point to, in the instance of Alexander Paeden, or in the instance of "tongues" that I mentioned in Joshua's last thread on "Charismatic Calvinists"?

I would agree that revelation has ceased & that the church has been established. But the apostles were not the only ones to speak in tongues, or to make predictions: none of the apostles were even present at Corinth when the whole disorderly tongues thing was going on. Yes, it was the apostles' gospel that was being authenticated-- but it still is, isn't it?

[Edited on 3-30-2004 by a mere housewife]

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Heidi
Indianapolis, Indiana

After two days, he will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live before him.
Let us know; let us press on to know the LORD; his going out is sure as the dawn; he will come to us as the showers, as the spring rains that water the earth.

Cessationist - in addition to the reasons Patrick and Bob mentioned, another passage I saw as pivotal when I became convinced is Hebrews 1:1-2 (ESV): "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."

One great book on this issue (and the one that was the final straw for me) is O. Palmer Robertson's [i:74e2945e57]The Final Word[/i:74e2945e57]. Especially valuable is his excellent, all-objections-silenced refutation of Wayne Grudem's arguments for continued prophecy and tongues today, which largely represent the best arguments of contemporary non-Pentecostal charismatics. I was surprised at how good the book was, since it's so small.

Heidi, to answer your question, as far as the instances in which so-called predictions supposedly prove accurate and tongues are supposedly in other real languages, I would initially be skeptical as to whether they actually happened or not. Then, if they indeed did, I would venture to say that they're fabrications of the mind (rather than from Satanic influence) in the majority of the cases, if not all of them, since Christians, after all, cannot be possessed by demons, since we are filled with God's Spirit.

In Christ,

Chris

[Edited on 3-30-2004 by Me Died Blue]

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Cessationist for reasons already posted by puritansailor.

I found Edwards to be particulary compelling on the subject. He spoke of how prophecy would take away from a high view of Scripture, and how God has ordained preaching not prophecy as the means of proclaiming the gospel.

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David Belanger
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[quote:2fffde9ff6][i:2fffde9ff6]Originally posted by a mere housewife[/i:2fffde9ff6]
I would agree that revelation has ceased & that the church has been established. But the apostles were not the only ones to speak in tongues, or to make predictions: none of the apostles were even present at Corinth when the whole disorderly tongues thing was going on. Yes, it was the apostles' gospel that was being authenticated-- but it still is, isn't it?
[/quote:2fffde9ff6]
No, it's not. The message was confirmed by the eye-witnesses of Christ. The message they recieved is the message we preach. And as Daveb rightly pointed out, the foolishness of preaching this message is the ordained means of spreading the gospel, not tongues or prophecy. The apostolic office was unique and foundational which required these confirming signs and wonders. Now, the testimony or authentication of the power of this message is the changed lives of those who respond in faith and are set free from the power of sin to proclaim and live to the glory of God.

(And as an aside note, there was an apostle present at Corinth, Paul. Paul was just across the sea in Ephesus. Some scholars even argue that he visited Corinth to address the issues in 1 Cor.)

[quote:aa5b738616][i:aa5b738616]Originally posted by a mere housewife[/i:aa5b738616]
I voted non-cessationist because the cessationist position, as I understand it, does not account for the instances of "predictions" & tongues that do still occur.[/quote:aa5b738616]

I'm still trying to figure out how one tests these "predictions" with Scripture. I mean, just because something that had an inclination about happens, does not mean this was some sort of prediction. It may very well have been comfort or a "bracing" from God, but that doesn't make it one of the gifts that we see in the early church. Also, it's not these people's place (the ones who experience these "predictions&quot to go and tell everyone of these instances as a witness to the lost. While testimonies are encouraging, they are NOT "the power of God unto salvation." What I'm trying to say is this: With a closed cannon of Scripture, we've all the revelation we need. Scripture is sufficient. So when someone claims to have "spoken in tongues", or be "slain in the Spirit", or anything of a like nature it's as if it can't be argued with. We can no longer, then, biblically discern between whose experience was of God and whose wasn't. Once the line of absolutes is smeared, Chaos rules.

[quote:aa5b738616]Which of these things would cessationists point to, in the instance of Alexander Paeden, or in the instance of "tongues" that I mentioned in Joshua's last thread on "Charismatic Calvinists"?[/quote:aa5b738616]

I don't really know, but I'll go with an exception, not the rule. A language may be supernaturally spoken through one who doesn't know it, if the gospel needs be preached and no linguist be around, but I'd say it's more of an exception, not a rule.

[quote:aa5b738616]I would agree that revelation has ceased & that the church has been established. But the apostles were not the only ones to speak in tongues, or to make predictions: none of the apostles were even present at Corinth when the whole disorderly tongues thing was going on. Yes, it was the apostles' gospel that was being authenticated-- but it still is, isn't it?[/quote:aa5b738616]

The keyword in your statement is [i:aa5b738616]disorderly[/i:aa5b738616]. And Paul went into a huge discourse on dealing with this sign that was for unbelievers.

[Edited on 3-30-2004 by joshua]

I am not sure how you are defining "cessastionist." If by that you mean that there is no furthe revelation of gospel truths, I agree.

If you mean that God will not speak in special revelation (prophecy, speaking, or otherwise) or perform miracles related to other matters until the second coming, then no.

Many of the major Reformers would not have been cessasionists according to the latter definition. Indeed, the possibility of predictive prophecy was built into some Reformation ecclesiastical documents, such as the Church of Scotland's Second Book of Discipline. There is a good paper online which discusses this as well as prophecies of Luther, Knox and others and the approval of them by Gillespie, Rutherford, et al.
A Reformation Discussion of Extraordinary Predictive Prophecy Subsequent to the Closing of the Canon of Scripture
http://www.ecn.ab.ca/prce/books/prophecy/prophecy.htm

Further, where the church has advanced in pagan lands, it has always had miracles accompanying the Word. See, for example Ramsay MacMullen's [i:47c163fdd1]Christianizing the Roman Empire[/i:47c163fdd1] (New Haven and London: Yale University Press, 1984). You can't read church history about the great expansions of Chistendom into pagan lands without reading of the extraordianry miracles and occurrences that attended them. See Bede's Ecclesiastical History of England as one example. MacMullen cites many primary sources in his book too. It is everywhere in church history.

That is why Puritans like Richard Baxter, George Gillespie, and others accounted for miracles and taught biblical principles for discerning between true and false miracles and prophecies. See Baxter's Christian Directory for one example. We discussed this in a little detail on another thread.
http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/vi...d.php?tid=3026

Even today, where the gospel advances it is accompanied by miracles and converts often testify that the reason of their conversion is at least in part to witnessing mriacles. China is a good example of this and here is one source where this is documented:
David Aikman, [i:47c163fdd1]Jesus in Beijing[/i:47c163fdd1]

This short article on Augustine's view is interesting too:
What Would Augustine Say: Miracles Ended Long Ago or Did They?
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/2000/003/17.43.html

Scott

[Edited on 3-30-2004 by Scott]

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Scott Roberts
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Thanks, Scott. I hate being the "lone ranger"; and it is difficult to believe that the great men throughout church history would have written off such well-documented instances of predictions and tongues as have been given as delusions or falsehoods. Jonathan Edwards was excellent with categories and distinctions, and it is hard for me to believe that he would have dealt with predictions & tongues (spoken in a legitimate, scriptural, orderly fashion) as if they constituted further revelation. This is why the verse you quoted, Christopher, doesn't convince me: it speaks to further revelation, but not to further signs/miracles. After all, Christ came before tongues in the NT; and the different ways and manners referred to is speaking of OT revelation, not of NT signs.

Joshua, I think we have a good rule for discerning whose experience is of God and whose isn't: the word of God, which tells us that if they speak not according to this word, then they are false prophets & teachers. Also, it gives guidelines for how these gifts are to be exercised.

For instance, if we take the case of the old lady I told you about, who has always maintained to intimate friends that God told her a week before her husband's death that he would die-- we have several Biblical ways by which to judge this. Did it come true? yes. Did it claim to be a new revelation? no. Did it contain anything contrary to Scripture? no. Is the lady trustworthy? There is absolutely no reason in our extensive acquaintance with her to think she would lie: she is one of the most Christian ladies I know. Did the prediction result in disorder, or unscriptural behaviour? No.

We also have the use of our common sense:
Is the old lady subject to delusions? no. Was she in a condition to suffer delusions at the time of her husband's death? no. If she was deluded, it resulted in the one of those most glorious instances of being able to rejoice in a difficult providence that I have met with: She was able to sing with her children at her husband's funeral: "Like a river glorious is God's perfect peace, over all victorious in its bright increase..."

If others are willing to turn all of these considerations to say "she has a false spirit" because it doesn't fit in with a theological definition that speaks primarily to revelation, not to signs and wonders, I am extremely reluctant to go along.

Patrick, I don't mean to quibble about what does "there" mean-- but I do not think that across the sea qualifies quite: the point I was making is that Paul was not physically present when the disorder with the tongues was going on. I absolutely agree that the foolishness of preaching is the means to spreading the gospel; but how can one preach if one doesn't know the language? How does a heathen know that this preaching is any different from the ranting of his witch doctor, who can walk across burning coals without being hurt? Your arguments about the apostolic office requiring these signs, and how they have no more use now, seem to be based on an association of these signs with new revelation. I do not make that association, and I wondered if I am missing something: what about these signs inherently speaks to new revelation?

Joshua, I think that Paul was not trying to tell them to stop speaking in tongues because he wasn't around, but to use them legitimately, and to seek the best gifts. I am not arguing for predictions/tongues being the best gifts, any more than I am arguing for them being further revelation.

Before anyone can say "yes" or "no" to this question, they HAVE to define "miracle".

If Mark 16, 2 Cor 9 and Hebrews 2 are correct, then miracles have ceased (as in the strict sense of the word). Otherwise witnessing to a Muslim would be impossible - his entire schematic is based on the reality that God can and still does miracles (i.e. this new revelation by way of miracle to Muhammed). If you are a non-cessationist, you have to acquiese to the Muslim. :jaw:

If we are saying that God can and does apply "special providecnes" where he may heal a person from cancer or leprosy, I'm fine with that. But let's not call that a miracle (i.e. an accompnaying sign of the apostolic witness).

[i:fdb97f0608]Some[/i:fdb97f0608] of the big guns of church history left the door open for predictions nad prophecy. Many did not. When you leave the door open who knows what else will creep in.

Go dhas given us in his word EVERYTHING (if you beleive it) that pertains to life and godliness. We don't need God to show up any other way other than in the Word, lest the sufficiency of Scripture be overthrown, which is really the bottom line on this question.

Is the Bible enough, or not?

Also, whenever you begin to say that ANY of the supernatural gifts of revelation are still active, then you are saying, without any wiggle room to wiggle out, that such revelation is eternally binding ont he church (i.e. people should start adding chapters to the Bible). In the early church, before the canon, there was need for God's intermediary revelation that was binding (i.e. prophesy, tongues, interpretation, etc.). With the canon, such mediate revelation is not needed and would overthrow the very revelation that is "ONCE for all entrusted to the saints."

Again, is the Bible enough, or do you need more, and why do you need more?

If then, we have the Word of God to "test" these revelation to see if they are ture, then you have immediately entered into a contradictory nature to these "supernatural revelation" (i.e. if we have the Word why do you need the revelations? Just listen to the Word - your testing these revelations against the WORD!!) :headscratch:

We cannot say that further revelation continues unless we are sure we want to add into that mix the reality, then, that the canon is not cloed.

Again, is the Bible enough? Is IT sufficient?

[quote:110012b5e9]
Again, is the Bible enough? Is IT sufficient?
[/quote:110012b5e9]

What about all the books you need to interpret the Bible ? ?

Dictionary, Atlas, Historical References, Lexicons, etc . . .

There is only a small part of the Scriptures that can be understood, and that understanding is limited, if all one uses is the Bible alone.

I think you mean that the Scriptures are the FINAL authority, not the only source of truth and knowledge.

So if a man sees a vision, or hears a voice, and it does not contradict the Bible, what is the harm ? ? ?

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[quote:efaee7456f][i:efaee7456f]Originally posted by Wintermute[/i:efaee7456f]
So if a man sees a vision, or hears a voice, and it does not contradict the Bible, what is the harm ? ? ? [/quote:efaee7456f]
What is the good in it?

It is a subjective existential affirmation of the Scriptures.

There are times when I have caught a glimpse of realities more substantial than the physical world. During those instances I was either hallucinating, or under demonic influence, or they were supernatural miracle.

I cannot prove which of the three they were, yet I experienced them.

Hoeksema makes more of the miraculous than webmaster.
I do not think we must rule out ALL miracle or supernatural gifts merely because we believe the Apostolic administration of those gifts died with the Apostles.