The argument that the signs and wonders were the authentication of the messangers of the New Testament follows the biblical example of the OT in attesting their authority.

In the NT the miracles follow the Apostles authenticating both their oral and written message.

Now fast forward to somebody going into soviet russia to preach the gospel. Don't they need miracles to attest their authenticity to a culture steeped in communist atheism?

I would say not. The pure preaching of the Word accompanyed by the conviction of the Holy Spirit would be enough.

What do YOU think?

__________________
Eoghan
member,Thurso Baptist Church
Scotland

specialist subject: Creationist Genetics (Bottleneck effect of the Ark)
interests: holiness (practical theology)
member of Biblical Creation Society (available as a guest speaker in the far north of Scotland)

Do we have Apostles today?

__________________
Richard
CofE
UK

Is someone arguing that every single miracle or charismatic gift refered to in the NT was a 'sign' of someone's authority?

__________________


http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/


"Preparing a sermon is like cooking a meal. You need pots and pans and utensils, but you don't bring them out to the table where people are eating." Derek Thomas


Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I would have to say that we do not have (or need) Apostles today. I believe in the plenary inspiration AND sufficiency of Scripture

Perhaps there is a degree of implicitness associated with the question, but it is not a total implicitness.

1 Cor 13:8 "Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away."

The question of "extraordinary" or "sign" gift should not be confined to miracle-working. If miracles are still present, then it follows that there should be other indicators of signs present as well--such as prophecy (continuing revelation), tongues (mastery of a recognizable language--correct syntax and grammar included, please--without previous study), and knowledge (Spirit-endowed intuition or information). But if these are not to be expected, then neither should miracle-workings be expected.

Scripture does not record uninterrupted miracles occurring from Creation to the Apostles. Rather, the miracles of the Bible are mainly confined to three extraordinary periods: the Exodus, Elisha/Elijah, and the Apostolic age. God did amazing things at other times, but rarely through human agency, which is what so much "miracle working" these days is all about. People want a following, they want self-authentication. But the church doesn't require a new establishment or foundation.

Paul's words to the Corinthians in vv8-10 do not need to be referred to the "perfection" of glory, or the end of everything. He is in the middle of extended argument for the superiority of the less-extravagant or "notable" gifts. In that context, I would argue that he is explaining that these "showy" demonstrations will no longer be necessary or useful. They have limitations, being "in part" and never "perfect". The fullness, or perfection, of NT revelation is not long in coming. He may well be referring to another kind of "fullness of knowledge" in v12. But this would only reinforce the argument: someday we will have the kind of face-to-face knowledge that will transcend even the present-age need for a full, permanently written revelation. But, v13, for now (in this age) abide faith, hope, and love [for as he asks in Rom 8:24--"Who hopes for what he sees?"].

__________________
Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI


When posting friends, kindly bear those words of earthly wisdom in mind:
Oh, that God the gift would give us
To see ourselves as others see us.
--Robert Burns, 1786 (modernized) ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions? --

If you go thru Acts, everytime a sign ,or wonder was done soon afterward it says that the word of God was believed, or the word of God grew.
The sign 's of the apostles were clearly to establish and fulfill God;s purpose for that time.

12Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds

Peter's sermon in Acts 2 says this
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know

here are some more examples of the same-

The increase of the word of God was central, not the sign's or sign gifts
This does not change throughout Acts-
Yet later on in Hebrews it seems as if they are already referring back to the signs previously done,

God credentialed His own word in this way, as He had promised the Apostles in Jn, 14, 15, 16. The Apostles would be guided into all truth. No need to look anywhere else. Consider these verses from 1JN.

No new apostles today/no new revelation.

What does the bible not tell us,that we need to know?
3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

__________________
Anthony D'Arienzo
Sunday School Teacher
Hope Reformed Baptist Church:
Medford, N.Y.

I used to think that charismatics were fairly harmless physically, even if dangerour spiritually. I revise that opinion when encountering examples of people who have died as a consequence of failing to take medication or medical treatment after falling under the sway of some charismatic Svengali.

Evangelist sued for claiming that God heals - Independent Online Edition > Americas

BBC NEWS | Americas | US boy dies during 'exorcism'

or consider the 90+ deaths attributed to Hobart Freedman Hobart Freeman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We really need to warn people that charismatic movement can be dangerous physically as well as spiritually.

Thank you, Eoghan. This is consistent with Reformational teaching. The Holy Spirit always accompanies the preaching of the word. Much of this modern charismatic nonsense can be laid at the feet of Edward Irving and Margret MacDonald (I believe they were Glaswegeans . There is no evidence of the Prophetic gifts opperating apart from the ministry of the apostles. These so-called prophets and apostles today are charlatins. They can only perform in a controlled environment and their lifestyles indicate they are false.

__________________
Stephen Welch
PCA Teaching Elder
Nova Scotia :cheers:

“For we are not forging some new gospel, but are retaining that very gospel whose truth all the miracles that Jesus Christ and his disciples every wrought serve to confirm.”
-Calvin’s Institutes, “Prefatory Address to King Francis I of France"

(in reference to the papist accusation that the Protestant doctrine was not confirmed with miracles)

__________________
Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA

"What sort of pledge and how great is this of love towards us! Christ lives for us not for himself!"
John Calvin, Commentary on the Hebrews (7:25)

These are great links and this is only the icing on the cake. What about the number of people who died after being healed by Oral Roberts or Benny Hinn? I visited a young boy in the hospital a few years ago who was dying from lukemia. His mother just brought him back from Hinn's crusade where he was "healed" from cancer. I ministered to him and his mother and he died 2 weeks later. The mother was devasted because she was told he was healed.

It should be noted that all charismatics aren't the same, which is the impression I get from the posts above. There are definitely those who are pernicious and destructive in their theology and practice, but we shouldn't lump everyone together.

__________________
Jacob
Sovereign Grace Ministries
Covenant Fellowship Church
WTS M.A.R. in Theology student
West Chester, PA

"Grace renews nature; glory perfects grace." ~ John Owen
"Grace tried is better than grace, and more than grace. It is glory in its infancy." ~ John Flavel
Blog - The Strasbourg Inn

Different how exactly? If anyone says "This is what the Lord says..." They should do so with fear and trembling. Ezekiel, a true prophet of God, had some things that God told him about false prophets that are pretty scary. Jeremiah as well. Christ fulfilled the office of prophet. He is now all in all, our prophet, priest, and King. So no more saying God told you this or that.

Ezekiel 13

2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;

3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!


6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.

7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?

8Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.

9And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.


Jeremiah 13

16 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord.

17 They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the Lord, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?

19 Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.

20 The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

23 Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?

24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.

25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.

26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;

__________________
Traci
Lynnwood OPC
"I have taken all my good deeds, and all my bad deeds, and cast them through each other in a heap before the Lord, and fled from both, and betaken myself to the Lord Jesus Christ, and in him I have sweet peace."--David Dickson

I would never flat out deny a "miracle", I just question #1 "Hinn" type miracles on demand. #2 Miracles are to be the norm. and #3 Supposed miracles which might be Demonic fakes, Marian sightings for example, that said, I have Christian Doctor friends who have seen cancers go away, types of cancers that do not usually go into remmision, much less somehow go without a trace. Far be it from me to say God cannot do something since we are in a certain period. Like I say I just use the 3 "red flag "miracles" as things to be wary of.

__________________
et

As I mentioned on the other thread, this might be helpful: Rutherford, The Gift of Prophecy, and the WCF

I hope you do not take Rutherford out of context, because he certainly did not advocate the kind of nonsense that was first introduced by Edward Irving and later adopted by non-cessastionists.

Read the thread...

Now fast forward to somebody going into soviet russia to preach the gospel. Don't they need miracles to attest their authenticity to a culture steeped in communist atheism?


The authentication showed by the signs were important in that they verified the authority of the expected Christ and His followers. They were not mere supernatural shows of power to convince men but were precise fulfillments of signs that would accompany the Christ in time at His arrival. We should not expect to see them now.

__________________
Bruce
PCUSA
Ocean City NJ