I'm having a spot of trouble in regard to the Cessationalist argument.

First, I'm having trouble finding a cessationalist argument. For every one cessationalist argument on the net there seems to be 10,000 continuationist arguments.

Second, I'm having trouble finding an argument of good quality. It seems as if very few of the scholarly crowd have attempted to present a scriptural case for this doctine. (atleast on google search )

As I understand the best argument cessationalism has is found in our doctrin of scripture being the final revelation from God, however (one spot of trouble), we are commanded by this very same scripture to “desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order."


I would appreciate any help in this area. Every week I'm confronted with the gross extremes and rotten fruit of the charismatic/pentecostal movement.

Thanks!

__________________
Jonathan
College Student
Grace Family Fellowship {SBC}
Kentucky

... yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

1 Corinthians 8:6

Hi:

It may be helpful to consider that the Gifts of God can be considered either Ordinary or Extraordinary. I believe that in matters concerning Cessationalism the Extraordinary Gifts have now ended. The Ordinary Gifts continue.

Prophecy, for example, can be understood (Extraordinarily) as delivering the infallible Word of the Living God (such as a Prophet or Apostle), or, it can be considered the Preaching of the Word of God (an Ordinary Gift).

We can naturally consider the Extraordinary Gift of Prophecy to have ceased because there are no more prophets or apostles around to minister such Revelation. However, the Ordinary Gift of Prophecy is still around for there are many mighty preachers of the Word still extant - including my Pastor David Reese -

One of my professors in college could learn a new language fluently within the space of one month. I would consider this an Ordinary Gift of tongues. In the case of the Extraordinary Gift of tongues, then one must take the whole of the regulations found in the Bible to heart. First, this Gift was the product of the Spirit of God providing the Word of God in a foreign tongue. Consequently, the Words coming from such a gift are infallible, inerrant, and should be obeyed as the direct commands of God.

Second, Moses gives us the test of a prophet or spiritual man (Dt 18:18-22). I would ask a person who claims to have the Extraordinary Gift of Prophecy or Tongues, "If your words are found to be false according to the Scriptures (1 John 4:1-3), then are you willing to be stoned to death?"

I see that Hal Lindsey and Harold Camping are still alive today?

Grace and Peace,

-CH

__________________
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Robert Paul Wieland
Springs Reformed Presbyterian Church
Colorado Springs, CO RPCNA
Student at Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary, Pittsburgh PA
Never be afraid to do something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark, but professionals built the Titanic.

So Cessationalism only deals with Extraordinary gifts that God sovereignly gives to men?

Scripturally, how do we know to make a distinction between ordinary prophecy and extraordinary prophecy? Isn't every example of prophecy given in the bible extraordinary?

__________________
Amber
South Woods Baptist Church http://southwoodsbc.org/
wife of Tyler; mother of Ashley, Nathaniel, Isaac, Jeremiah
O send out Your light and Your truth, let them lead me; let them bring me to Your holy hill and to Your dwelling places. Then I will go to the altar of God, to God my exceeding joy; and upon the lyre I shall praise You, O God, my God. Psalm 43:3

I recommend these two books

1. "Signs of the Apostles" by Walter Chantry (Reformed Baptist)

2. "The Charasmatic Gift of Prophecy-A Reformed Response to Wayne Grudem
by Kenneth L. Gentry Jr. (Presbyterian)

The two best books on the subject I've read and I've read alot coming from a Penetcostal background myself

__________________
Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations,...” Jesus

" I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul

Thanks! I'm reading through Charasmatic Chaos right now.

This book is worth reading:

The WCF and the Cessation of Special Revelation -- Milne

__________________
Andrew

I found this one also very good -

Counterfeit Miracles, BB Warfield

__________________
~Jay~
Husband of ENS, father of J II. | Indian Trail, NC
disabled - cancer
Communicant Member, Precentor | Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte, NC | Presbyterian Reformed Church

zzzzzz ...

Also, as a resource that will be a very technical dealing with the main Scriptural text itself, check out Showing the Spirit by D.A. Carson (who follows Grudem on prophecy). It's not cessationist material, but I think he'll help equip you to have a thorough understanding whichever way you turn on the issue. He is, at least, a scholar to be reckoned with.

I've also been interested in reading The First Epistle to the Corinthians (New International Greek Testament Commentary) by Anthony C. Thiselton for a while. I have no idea where he lands, but if you read it, report back!

__________________
Jacob
Sovereign Grace Ministries
Covenant Fellowship Church
WTS M.A.R. in Theology student
West Chester, PA

"Grace renews nature; glory perfects grace." ~ John Owen
"Grace tried is better than grace, and more than grace. It is glory in its infancy." ~ John Flavel
Blog - The Strasbourg Inn

Hi:

That is a good question. Probably the best way of answering it would be to note the distinctions the Bible makes between an Apostle and an Elder. In pointing this out I will quote from that most famous of books on the subject by Thomas Witherow, The Apostolic Church: Which is it? thus:

I think that the difference between the Extraordinary Gift of a Prophet, and the Ordinary Gift of a Prophet can be understood in this distinction between an Apostle (Extraordinary) and an Elder (Ordinary). An Apostle or (Extraordinary) Prophet does not need to quote or refer to Scripture, because his very words are Scripture itself. An Elder or Preacher cannot deliver the infallible Word in and of himself, but must preach from the Word of God.

Thus, if someone claims to be a Prophet in the Extraordinary sense, then his words must be tested with the Word of God. If he is not contradicting Scripture, then he may very well be a Prophet in this sense. If he is contradicting the Scriptures, then he should be put to death.

I am of the opinion that those who claim to be Prophets in the Extraordinary sense either do not know what they are talking about, or, are frauds. You will find that if their lives are put on the line for their "Prophesyings" then they would most likely back down from their claims.

In Jesus,

-Rob

Is there a difference between 'cessationalism' and 'cessationism'?

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Only if you are quiet and not "censational" about it.

Jonathan,

I have been dealing with this issue of sound Scriptural arguments for quite a while, as I am surrounded by charismatics / Pentecostals in my city and country (only two Reformed churches in the entire country), and there are constant attempts at encroachment into my flock.

For a full treatment of the subject, and also a close exegesis, especially of 1 Cor 14, I suggest Victor Budgen’s The Charismatics and the Word of God: A biblical and historical perspective on the charismatic movement (EP 1989) ISBN 0852342640.

I also liked:

Signs of the Apostles by Walter Chantry.
The Final Word: A Biblical Response to the Case for Tongues and Prophesy Today, by O. Palmer Robertson (BOT)
Charismatic Chaos. by John MacArthur.

I just finished Sam Waldron’s, To Be Continued? Are the miraculous gifts for today? It has a succinct and clear argument. This is a summation of it I printed in our church bulletin two weeks ago:

---------

A brief look at why the miraculous gifts given the early church are not given today. Please also note, these gifts were people, who performed certain tasks.

The greatest and most important gift was the Apostles (Eph 4:11). Those in the apostolate had to have 3 qualifications: 1) eye-witness of the resurrected Christ (Acts 1:21, 22; 10:39–41); 2) directly appointed by Christ (Mk 3:14; Lk 6:13; Acts 1:2); and 3) miraculous signs confirming their apostleship (Acts 2:43; 4:33; 5:12; 2 Cor 12:12). When these men died this foremost spiritual gift to the early church no longer existed, even though the fruit they bore remains.

The gift second in importance was the prophets (Eph 4:11; 1 Cor 12:28). Exactly as with the prophetic office in the OT their prophetic utterances were directly inspired of God and infallible (without error of any sort). When recorded their words were part of the canon of Scripture. The last recorded NT prophecy was the Book of Revelation: “Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of this prophecy...” (1:3). If the prophetic office existed today then the canon of NT Scripture would still be open, and the Bible unfinished. All churches agree the NT canon is closed.

The house of God is built “upon the foundation of the apostles and [NT] prophets” (Eph 2:20; 3:5), and the foundation is already laid, and not still being built. The prophetic office is closed, as is the apostolate. So we see 2 spiritual gifts now ceased. Those who call themselves NT “prophets” nowadays are thus false, and all must agree they fail to meet the Deut 18:20–22 standard, and thus are condemned by the word of God!

The gift of tongues-speakers – using distinct foreign languages – as a revelatory gift equal to prophecy when interpreted (1 Cor 14:5), that is, bringing an inspired and infallible word directly from God, is, on the same basis as prophecy, ceased. With the completion of the Scriptures the revelation-gifts were no longer needed, the written word of God to His people sufficient that “The man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Tim 3:17)

----------

This is what I look for also, a good Scriptural argument. I have a paper with 12 points (2 pages) I can post as well, if you’re interested.

Steve

__________________
Steve Rafalsky
Elder, International Evangelical Church (Reformed)
Limassol, Cyprus

"I am set for the defense of the gospel" (Philippians 1:17)

"Strengthened with all might, according to His glorious
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Steve, I'm not Jonathan, but I'd be interested in that if you wouldn't mind posting or e-mailing that to me.

What of miracles close at hand?

I stand the recipient of a HUGE financial blessing from a stranger. I find little of the Ordinary and much of the Extraordinary in that.

Also, having just come back from Ethiopia and seen the conversions there, it is difficult for me to hold this line too solidly. Food multiplication miracles, Muslims dreaming dreams, so many coming out of the lies of the Ethiopian Orthodox church by miraculous ways, etc. - maybe I'm too small-minded in this, but this too is Extraordinary to me.

__________________
Kevin, husband of a truly angelic woman, and father to ten.
Zion United Reformed Church of Sheffield
Ontario, Canada

Hi Kevin,

I totally understand what you're saying. Any miracle at all seems to be extraordinary to us. That said, the miracles that occur today are of a different class than the ones during the times of the apostles... For instance, we don't see people being raised from the grave, we don't see people being miraculously healed before our very eyes (though Benny Hinn would beg to differ here ), we don't see people speaking fluently in foreign tongues all of the sudden and without training... I would say those are extraordinary miracles whereas we do see other types of miracles such as you've described and those miracles are common, to a certain degree.

Also, I believe the Miracles (capital M) of the Lord Jesus and His Apostles and disciples all served as testimony of the Gospel message as a sort of "authentication" of the Gospel message. Whereas the miracles (small m) we see today don't seem to serve that same purpose in the same way...

Does that make sense?

__________________
Pastor Steve Bradley
Trinity Reformed Presbyterian Church (RPCNA)
www.trinityrpc.org
www.sermonaudio.com/trinityrpc
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Riva, MD

Actually, it does, and I appreciate the differentiation. I was sort of in the dark about this, and while I do maintain a cessationalist approach with regards to the raising of the dead, etc., I can't get over what I have seen and experienced. I remember a thread a while back in which Pergamum was saying the same thing about what he'd seen first hand out in the jungle.

Thing is, I still can't get over the extraordinary nature of what has happened to me personally. But now I see it in a slightly different light. Thank you for that.

Thanks for the interesting insight! I'll have to keep this in mind.

Browbeating always works. If Todd Bentley et al can do it, why not us?


KIDDING.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

Thanks for the post. Please do post this paper!

I edited the thread title to help others find the thread in the future.

When it boils right down to it, I believe the Confessions and activities of the non-cessationists speaks for itself. What is core to Christian belief usually gets pushed to the peripherals because the 'experience' of God through charismatic expression *always* trumps God's revelation of Himself through His Word. I have never found an exception to the rule that a Church focused on Charismatic expression depreciates what is most central to Christian worship: Word and Sacrament.

Hebrews 4:12 states that the Word of God is living and active. The Word of God is referred to as living oracles by Stephen. The difference between our God and the false gods of the pagan is that our God speaks - He has revealed Himself in the Word. The pagan, however, has to 'experience' revelation from their gods because their gods are mute - they are not alive. What passes for Charismatic experience in the name of Scriptural justification is really the importation of pagan worship elements into the worship of the true and living God.

The Word of our God is living and active and pierces to the very core of our being. It searches out and reveals every hidden sin. It reveals Christ as the solution to that sin. Through the preaching of the Word of our living God, souls are made alive to worship Him. When people recognize this Truth and when it penetrates them then the imitation of pagans and their experiences is a cheap facade. We're able to sing praises to God and worship Him on the basis of how great His salvation is. We encounter and receive grace from that God in His Word as well as the Sacraments He has given us that hold forth Christ and renew us again unto Him.

I've been working my way through The Divine Right of Church Government. I'm persuaded by its authors that the tongues spoken of in 1 Corinthians points to the diversity of the congregation and the edification of those who might need the Word of God proclaimed in their native tongue. I'm also persuaded that the prophecies spoken of are the gift of forth-telling that a preacher provides when preaching the Word.

Twisted to the ends of worshipping as our sinful hearts would incline, however, and suddenly these gifts have become babbling or "sing-songy" and strange utterances. If any of you have spent much time in Charismatic circles as I have, is it not remarkable that the majority of those "speaking in tongues" and "prophesying" are women? It ought to tell us something about the spirit of such activity that Paul very clearly tells women to be quiet in worship but nothing can overthrow 'experience', which must inevitably trump the living and active Word of God. Because, after all, the gods of such experience are mute and so must the God of Scripture give way to the experiences of the sinful human heart.

__________________
Rich
PCA, Northern VA
Student, New Geneva Theological Seminary

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Hey Rich,

You're OPC now! Welcome back to the states! Oh, I'm not back myself yet -- maybe in a year or two, as the Lord determines.

Yes, I'll post that piece tomorrow -- it's called, "TALKING POINTS AGAINST THE PENTECOSTAL HERESY", and I prepared it for my class in Africa a couple of years ago.

Steve, out of curiosity, do you differentiate between Pentecostals (i.e. Bentley, George Jeffreys, etc.), and continuationists (i.e. Grudem, Carson, Piper, etc.)?

Jacob,

I do differentiate between them. Here in this country we have elders in local churches who may not practice the supposed gifts, but who theologically promote their continuance. In the book mentioned above by Waldron (2005), he interacts with some. I think Budgen does also, although his book is dated 1989 -- still, it is excellent.

This following piece I do not assess as being on a par with what I summarized from Waldron, but it may be helpful.

-------

TALKING POINTS AGAINST THE PENTECOSTAL HERESY

1) It is clear that the teaching of a “second baptism” of the Holy Spirit after our true baptism in the Spirit given us at conversion is a lie of the deceiver to confuse the people of God. Paul said there is only “one baptism” (Ephesians 4:5), and this is given us when we are born of the Spirit (John 3:5) and sealed by Him unto eternal life (Ephesians 1:13; 4:30), and this Spirit-baptism that gave us the new life (Titus 3:5) is to be followed by our obedience in submitting to water baptism, as the Lord Jesus commanded (Matthew 28:19; Ephesians 3:5).

2) The poured out baptism of the young New Testament church in the Holy Spirit who was sent forth by the ascended Lord Jesus was the fulfillment of many Old Testament promises of God, such as Joel 2:28, 29; Isaiah 44:3, 4; Ezekiel 11:19, 20; 36:25-27, to name but a few. Jesus had obtained from the Father this extraordinary blessing for His people as a reward for His redemptive work from birth to death, to resurrection and ascension (Acts 2:33; 5:31, 32). This “baptism” was the bringing of the church into union with the very death and life of Christ (Romans 6:3-5; John 16:13, 14; Colossians 2:9-13; 3:3, 4).

3) The outward seal and sign of this inner, spiritual new birth from God was to be water baptism (Ezekiel 36:25; Matthew 28:19; Acts 2:38-42; John 3:5).

4) The miraculous signs accompanying the first outpouring of Christ’s Spirit on the day of Pentecost, such as the “tongues of fire” over the disciples’ heads and the “sound…of a rushing mighty wind” were one-time historical events, and the men speaking in foreign tongues or languages so that all the Jews assembled in Jerusalem from various nations could understand the wonderful works of God proclaimed by the apostolic band, were actually prophesying in these languages (Acts 2:16-18; Joel 2:28, 29). That is, they were speaking inspired and infallible words from God.

5) The continuing appearance of the foreign (including unknown) languages spoken in the church and interpreted were considered equal with prophesying (1 Corinthians 14:5). If there was no interpreter the language should not be spoken in the church (1 Corinthians 14:28). The important thing to understand is that both prophesying and inspired speaking in foreign languages interpreted were revelational gifts, that is, God spoke His infallible and inspired words through these people.

6) The purpose of revelational gifts to the young church was to guide, encourage, and support it during the period before the written revelation of God in the New Testament was finished. Once the Scriptures of the New Testament were completed, God having spoken finally, utterly and completely through His Son (and the Son through His apostles) the revelation from God was completed and sealed. (Hebrews 1:1, 2; 2:1-4; 2 Peter 3:2; Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32; Proverbs 30:5, 6; Revelation 22:18, 19).

7) It is clear from God’s word that no further revelation is needed, but that what He has provided is sufficient so “That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished [equipped] unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:17) Those who say more “revelation” is needed, such as the “Pentecostals” false prophecies or gibberish tongues, demean the sufficiency and integrity of the Holy Bible. What God has said is complete, they say is incomplete.

8) These special gifts – the prophesyings, inspired foreign languages, healings, and other miraculous gifts – were signs given only to the apostles and to the churches they worked in, that is, the churches of what is called “the apostolic age.” John, the last apostle, died around the end of the 1st century. Paul called the miraculous gifts “signs of an apostle” (2 Corinthians 12:12). He refers to his own apostolic gifts – and credentials – in Galatians 3:5, and again in Romans 15:18, 19. When the apostles were taken from the world by their Lord, and the holy record of Scripture complete, no further revelation was needed or allowed.

9) The power of God was now in His inspired and infallible word contained in Scripture. The miraculous gifts of the apostles, both directly by them and indirectly by those in the churches they were the overseers of, were replaced by the power of the Holy Spirit through the word of God written in His Book. Hebrews 2:1-4 says clearly that we must give heed to the things spoken by the Lord and His apostles, whose words He had confirmed by many signs, wonders, miracles, and gifts. The time of this confirmation has passed, and the time for heeding the spoken word of the Son and His apostles has come. As Paul says, “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him…?” (Hebrews 2:3)

10) The Scripture attests to its own power and sufficiency when it says, “the gospel of Christ…is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes” (Romans 1:16), and in 1 Corinthians 1:18 it is written, “The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” The Holy Spirit of power is most manifest in the preaching of the gospel of Christ, and in the preaching of His cross, whereon the Lord of glory suffered the eternal death deserved by us His people. The power of our God and His Christ is in the preaching the deep things of His glorious gospel as contained in His word. Jesus said to us, “The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life” (John 6:63). His words in us are full of His power, and of His life. In the preaching of God’s word is His mighty power.

11) When a pentecostal grabs you and asks, “Have you been baptized in the Holy Ghost, and have you spoken in tongues?” You might answer, “Yes, the very moment I was saved by Him He baptized me with the Holy Ghost and fire (Matthew 3:11; John 3:5; Acts 2:38, 39; 5:32) as He promised, and by His Spirit He also baptized me into His Body, adding me to the church as one of His saved ones (1 Corinthians 12:13; Acts 2:47). As for tongues, the apostle Paul said that even in the early church not all spoke in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30), so why are you asking me a question against the word of God?”

The genuine Holy Spirit – called also the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9; Philippians 1:19) – does not give so-called supernatural experiences and apostolic gifts in these days, but rather He reveals the risen Lord and Savior, showing us His excellent glory and grace, and helps us understand what He has accomplished for us by His redemptive works. The Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost) is the Spirit of Christ, as it is written, “Now the Lord is that Spirit…” (2 Corinthians 3:17, 18). The Spirit of truth loves sound doctrine.

12) I would make it clear that when a pentecostal (or charismatic, as they are also called) talks to you about the false doctrines they hold, as though you should believe in them too or something is wrong with you, you should make it clear that you come from a church that honors the Bible above the ideas of men and deceptions of Satan, and honors the Lord Jesus Christ above some false ideas about the Holy Spirit (for the Holy Spirit does not speak of Himself, but He glorifies Christ – John 16:13, 14). You need to know your Bible, and the Biblical doctrines taught in this paper, so you can resist false teaching.

But please remember this: that many of the pentecostals are genuine Christian brothers and sisters, and they love Jesus even though they have bad errors about the faith. So we are to be gentle and patient with them, and ask them to come and talk with our pastors, elders or older Christians who might show them the truth, if we cannot do it ourselves.

If the pentecostals are “pushy” about their false teachings, please tell them to stop being “pushy” or you will have to walk away from them, for it is written, “Go from the presence of a foolish man, when you do not perceive in him the lips of knowledge.” (Proverbs 14:7)

Thanks for the paper. I'll have to hang on to it!

It seems to me most Pentecostals and charismatics would say these gifts are not new revelation, and they do not replace Scripture. However in practice, they use them as an equal revelatory authority with Scripture and look to them as a source of guidance. Pentecostals would seem to require the gift of tongues specifically as confirmation of a "second work of grace" of the Holy Spirit whereas Charismatics would adhere to the "second work of grace" but not necessarily evidenced by that gift.

This bifurcation of the work of the Holy Spirit and equalling the gifts as a source of authority (even if equal or inferior to the authority of Scripture) is where both groups tend to miss this from the Reformer's understanding of the Holy Spirit speaking though Scripture.

What we are left with is trying to figure out what many of us have seen that do appear to be manifestation of these gifts.

Granting the points above regarding the authority of Scripture, and one baptism, substantive coming of the Holy Spirit, isn't it possible to believe biblically that speaking in other tongues continues as some sort of edification gift or even as an extraordinary gift for evangelism? (I'm not advocating, only asking for purposes of these explanations).

S. Olyott does a good job of supporting cessationism in his sermons on 1 Cor. 12, 13, & 14. I think they can be found here: https://www.knowyourbiblerecordings.org/index.html

__________________
Kevin Guillory
Pastor
Redeemer Christian Congregation
Baltimore, MD

I don't interpret Scripture. Scripture
interprets itself. And in the process ...
Scripture interprets me!

Hi Scott,

Per your wondering about the status of modern tongues, if they are not the exact same as the tongues / languages of the NT, then they are something else entirely. Either they are the Lord speaking infallibly through them (and equal to prophecy when interpreted), or they are of man or the devil.

Is there a middle ground? J.I. Packer, in his, Keep In Step With The Spirit, chapters 5 & 6, opts for one, and respect Packer as I do, I nonetheless have to differ with him here. He opines that modern tongue-speaking may be some beneficial psychological phenomenon equivalent to be-bop or scat (verbal jazz), and is therefore acceptable. Budgen interacts with him on this point. It's like being pregnant. One either is or is not -- there's no middle ground. It's the real NT tongues or it is something else.

An example of the demonic infiltrating charismatic flesh activity may be seen in the "holy laughter" / Toronto Blessing sort of thing. There is middle ground / degrees when it comes to that.

Waldron accepts the possibility of a missionary, say, being given the miraculous ability to speak in another language to a new peoples group, as a one-off or so thing. And we none of us discount that the Lord still does miracles and healings when it pleases Him.

What I have written pertains to the gifts of apostles, prophets, tongues-speakers, miracle-workers no longer operating in their offices / functions today. As a principle it is sound, that is, reflects Scriptural truth. Everything we see or experience we assess within the context of that paradigm. Everything, even the "unexplainable".

P.S. Kevin, I like Olyott; he has a gift of making the complex clear and easy to understand.