Women and Apologetics?

Simply_Nikki · #1 (**permalink**) 09-10-2008, 10:48 PM

I have a question. I have this fantabulous idea of starting a club on campus for Christian apologetics. I was wondering though, if it would be within my role as a woman to head such a club. I would like to see the club make use of both presuppositional and evidentiary apologetics (I think both are helpful, the latter simply requireing the proper understanding that evidence without the spirit working is dead).

Could a woman teach or lead discussions in evidentiary apologetics to fellow Christians? (Since this would essentially be teaching topics like biology, physics, astromony, history etc, with the framework of how these natural revelations contain evidence that points to God.) How about presuppositional apologetics? Or would this or both types be violating 1 timothy 2:12?

Appreciate your thoughts

Grace Alone · #2 (**permalink**) 09-10-2008, 11:07 PM

Nikki, I think most groups like this should fall under some kind of authority such as the church or at least a campus ministry. I'm not sure about the leadership issue. But this summer, I attended a conference where Susan Hunt was a speaker. Someone asked her about leading a Bible study in one's home not associated with a church. She replied humbly that she had never done that. She has always only led Bible studies under the authority of her church. She said she would not trust herself outside of the framework of accountability that the church provides. And she is one of the foremost women's Bible study teachers today.

Do you have an RUF at your school? Any reformed campus ministries at all? My inclination is to share the idea with a church or campus ministry. You may be able to help coordinate things, but perhaps there may be an elder or pastor or seminary student who might take the head leadership role assuming you want this to be a mixed group.

Simply_Nikki · #3 (**permalink**) 09-10-2008, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grace Alone

Nikki, I think most groups like this should fall under some kind of authority such as the church or at least a campus ministry. I'm not sure about the leadership issue. But this summer, I attended a conference where Susan Hunt was a speaker. Someone asked her about leading a Bible study in one's home not associated with a church. She replied humbly that she had never done that. She has always only led Bible studies under the authority of her church. She said she would not trust herself outside of the framework of accountability that the church provides. And she is one of the foremost women's Bible study teachers today.

Do you have an RUF at your school? Any reformed campus ministries at all? My inclination is to share the idea with a church or campus ministry. You may be able to help coordinate things, but perhaps there may be an elder or pastor or seminary student who might take the head leadership role assuming you want this to be a mixed group.

Yes we have RUF and Graduate Christian Fellowship, my first thought was to actually bring that up to them. I would love for it to be headed by a church. RUF was going through this book by Tim Keller "The Reason for God", however it takes place at a time that I can't make =( I thought with James White's church being only an hour and 30 mins. away maybe someone from his ministry could lead/help out?

That would be awesome! I would love to see it grow on various college campuses just like RUF.

cih1355 · #4 (**permalink**) 09-11-2008, 01:08 AM

I agree that the club should fall under the authority of a church or campus ministry.

Nikki,

Are there any Christian professors who could be involved with the club?

Simply_Nikki · #5 (**permalink**) 09-11-2008, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cih1355

I agree that the club should fall under the authority of a church or campus ministry.

Nikki,

Are there any Christian professors who could be involved with the club?

Hmm,

I don't know of any Christian professors, it's pretty taboo to just come out and say hey I'm a Christian. So you usually never really know (although I made it pretty clear that I was among my colleagues). There's kind of an unwritten don't ask don't tell policy that goes along with religion.

Pergamum · #6 (**permalink**) 09-11-2008, 02:16 AM

A group of folks get together to talk. They talk about whatever. Then they decide to talk about Christianity. They are not going to preach or observe the Lords Supper or incorproate as a church. There is no ecclesiastical authority being wielded. They are going to talk as a group of Christians, voluntarily associating together.

All of the sudden they are not good enough to do this and need to import the clergy?

Christians watch your dinner conversations, lest a group of 2 or 3 gather together and speak of Jesus - don't you know that you need a church official present!

(how would you respond to this charge - that since this group is NOT a church but a group of people wanting to gather and talk and not worship - that they do not need direct oversight from a local church)

Simply_Nikki · #7 (**permalink**) 09-11-2008, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pergamum

A group of folks get together to talk. They talk about whatever. Then they decide to talk about Christianity. They are not going to preach or observe the Lords Supper or incorproate as a church. There is no ecclesiastical authority being wielded. They are going to talk as a group of Christians, voluntarily associating together.

All of the sudden they are not good enough to do this and need to import the clergy?

Christians watch your dinner conversations, lest a group of 2 or 3 gather together and speak of Jesus - don't you know that you need a church official present!

(how would you respond to this charge - that since this group is NOT a church but a group of people wanting to gather and talk and not worship - that they do not need direct oversight from a local church)

Well the fact that it is more than just people talking having a casual discussion about doctrine and apologetics. I envisioned this group being like a teaching seminar or workshop, to help prepare students who are in college to face professors and other students who are anti-Christian. I'm thinking powerpoint slides, role playing scenarios, articles and books, speakers, the whole works.

JohnGill · #8 (**permalink**) 09-11-2008, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simply_Nikki

I have a question. I have this fantabulous idea of starting a club on campus for Christian apologetics. I was wondering though, if it would be within my role as a woman to head such a club. I would like to see the club make use of both presuppositional and evidentiary apologetics (I think both are helpful, the latter simply requireing the proper understanding that evidence without the spirit working is dead).

Could a woman teach or lead discussions in evidentiary apologetics to fellow Christians? (Since this would essentially be teaching topics like biology, physics, astromony, history etc, with the framework of how these natural revelations contain evidence that points to God.) How about presuppositional apologetics? Or would this or both types be violating 1 timothy 2:12?

Appreciate your thoughts

Even in dealing with evidentialism, you would be teaching men how to obey 1 Peter 3:15. However, there would be nothing wrong with you starting it and when a qualified man comes along have him assume the leadership role. I believe Timothy was taught by women until a qualified man came along. Have you discussed it with the men around there?

For college campuses, if secular, presuppositionalism will be better. Bahnsen's Myth of Neutrality and the Bahnsen vs. Stein debate are available at YouTubes with a pdf file of the debate is also online.

I was told of an elderly lady who started Bible studies for the women in her area. It was women only, but men were allowed to sit in the back quietly as long as they did not ask questions. She made these restrictions so that she didn't violate scripture. Apparently where she was at, there were no men who were willing to teach.

Tim · #9 (**permalink**) 09-11-2008, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pergamum

A group of folks get together to talk. They talk about whatever. Then they decide to talk about Christianity. They are not going to preach or observe the Lords Supper or incorproate as a church. There is no ecclesiastical authority being wielded. They are going to talk as a group of Christians, voluntarily associating together.

All of the sudden they are not good enough to do this and need to import the clergy?

Christians watch your dinner conversations, lest a group of 2 or 3 gather together and speak of Jesus - don't you know that you need a church official present!

(how would you respond to this charge - that since this group is NOT a church but a group of people wanting to gather and talk and not worship - that they do not need direct oversight from a local church)

The key difference is that in the group being proposed, there almost certainly would have be some sort of leader. This leader would have the responsibility to teach or otherwise lead the discussion. There would be decisions made as to the content of the discussion and the direction of the meetings that would occur. We ought not suppose that one person could lead such a group without accountability, support, and connection to visible church body/bodies.

This activity is something that should be overseen by a structure of church leadership done according to the Biblical model. A structure of authority is not to be resented but desired. It is a help.

christianyouth · #10 (**permalink**) 09-11-2008, 07:14 AM

Just realistically, it may not be an option for Sister Nikki to get this ministry overseen by a local church. The local churches in her area may be weak doctrinally, unmotivated for the task of evangelism/apologetics, and just too far to oversee a ministry like this. Should this good, necessary work be discouraged if oversight by a local church is not possible?

Is there any evidence that Luther acted under the authority of and with the approval of a local church?

CatechumenPatrick · #11 (**permalink**) 09-11-2008, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simply_Nikki

Well the fact that it is more than just people talking having a casual discussion about doctrine and apologetics. I envisioned this group being like a teaching seminar or workshop, to help prepare students who are in college to face professors and other students who are anti-Christian. I'm thinking powerpoint slides, role playing scenarios, articles and books, speakers, the whole works.

I wish you went to my school! I would love to come to something like that. If you can't make that formal of a meeting work, then perhaps you could just have regular apologetics-get-togethers with people who would be involved in such a group, and just make more informal and casual?

Scott1 · #12 (**permalink**) 09-11-2008, 08:03 AM

Great question.

Generally, an Apologetics group of some sort would be under someone's authority. When I went back to school recently, we could form almost any kind of student organization by having a few interested students and getting a faculty sponsor. Then, a group would almost automatically get "in the loop" for campus funding, logistical support (getting a place to meet) and get an introductory article in the newspaper.

Someone I know did this with some sort of pro-life group and their whole charter was to bring in speakers on the topic to be followed by question and answer sessions by students. They also had had booths, tables and displays at campus events.

Authority is an important principle in Scripture and you are to be commended for thinking about it. The Biblical principle, in my understanding would be to try to get a core group together to do this with men taking the lead. I think you could do a whole lot of things in a support and participation role and not violate biblical principles or your conscience or cause others to stumble.

Keeping in mind everything biblically (including not violating your conscience and keeping others from stumbling), I would try the following:

1) Seek out a male faculty member sponsor. If you can have more than one, I personally think it is okay to have both men and women as long as somehow, the male sponsor was ordinarily most visible as sponsor.

2) If your club has officers, I would try for the same pattern. You could do a lot in a support role as say a vice president of this, have a lot of influence, etc.

3) Lay down a clear charter that while there will can be a clear range of biblical views, somehow, I would not bring in women who claim to be church officers (Minister, Elder, Deacon) because that is contrary to office-holding in Scripture. In other contexts, women can be fine as speakers.

There is some gray area in this, Nikki, because I don't have all the facts here. You are to commended to be considering this from a biblical standpoint.

I for one, as a student, would enjoy having a speaker explain "Calvinism" and another explain "Arminianism" and then have them go at it in a debate!

Pergamum · #13 (**permalink**) 09-11-2008, 09:48 AM

Hello;

My point with my above question is how far do we obey the structures of the church when out of church. I.e. we need not call in an ecclesiastical figure everytime a group meets and talks about something religious and maybe even prays.

However, it does seem wise...if the group is more formal and leader-led (versus and informal discussion) to have a qualified person.

jwithnell · #14 (**permalink**) 09-11-2008, 11:26 AM

Your session is strongly in the camp of Van Til -- have you brought this idea up to them? I bet if you said, I'd like to see this started and here are the specifics of what I can do, you'd get support.

Simply_Nikki · #15 (**permalink**) 09-11-2008, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott1

Great question.

Generally, an Apologetics group of some sort would be under someone's authority. When I went back to school recently, we could form almost any kind of student organization by having a few interested students and getting a faculty sponsor. Then, a group would almost automatically get "in the loop" for campus funding, logistical support (getting a place to meet) and get an introductory article in the newspaper.

Someone I know did this with some sort of pro-life group and their whole charter was to bring in speakers on the topic to be followed by question and answer sessions by students. They also had had booths, tables and displays at campus events.

Authority is an important principle in Scripture and you are to be commended for thinking about it. The Biblical principle, in my understanding would be to try to get a core group together to do this with men taking the lead. I think you could do a whole lot of things in a support and participation role and not violate biblical principles or your conscience or cause others to stumble.

Keeping in mind everything biblically (including not violating your conscience and keeping others from stumbling), I would try the following:

1) Seek out a male faculty member sponsor. If you can have more than one, I personally think it is okay to have both men and women as long as somehow, the male sponsor was ordinarily most visible as sponsor.

2) If your club has officers, I would try for the same pattern. You could do a lot in a support role as say a vice president of this, have a lot of influence, etc.

3) Lay down a clear charter that while there will can be a clear range of biblical views, somehow, I would not bring in women who claim to be church officers (Minister, Elder, Deacon) because that is contrary to office-holding in Scripture. In other contexts, women can be fine as speakers.

There is some gray area in this, Nikki, because I don't have all the facts here. You are to commended to be considering this from a biblical standpoint.

I for one, as a student, would enjoy having a speaker explain "Calvinism" and another explain "Arminianism" and then have them go at it in a debate!

Well for college groups I don't think you need a professor to sponsor it, but just the basic organizational stuff (charter, leaders,etc.). We have a Reformed University Fellowship on Campus and then other Non-Denom Christian Groups. With the apologetics group, I would hope it would be more open, there are a lot of excellent Arminian apologist (although they tend to be on the evidentiary side of things, I'd still like to to see a mixture of evidentiary and presuppositional). I think I will talk with the pastor in charge of the Reformed University Fellowship as well as some people who belong to the Graduate Christian Fellowship (I know GCF has many sub group meetings like the Dead Theologian Society, perhaps they could add an Apologia Society(tm) <--just trade marked that

).

Simply_Nikki · #16 (**permalink**) 09-11-2008, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CatechumenPatrick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simply_Nikki

Well the fact that it is more than just people talking having a casual discussion about doctrine and apologetics. I envisioned this group being like a teaching seminar or workshop, to help prepare students who are in college to face professors and other students who are anti-Christian. I'm thinking powerpoint slides, role playing scenarios, articles and books, speakers, the whole works.

I wish you went to my school! I would love to come to something like that. If you can't make that formal of a meeting work, then perhaps you could just have regular apologetics-get-togethers with people who would be involved in such a group, and just make more informal and casual?

Good idea!