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10-22-2007, 01:26 PM
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I know this is a neccessary teaching to support Young Earth Creationism, but is it a neccessary doctrine to orthodox Christianity? What about Psalm 104:21 (a psalm of creation) where it speaks of lions and their prey, or the Leviathan in Genesis 1? What was he supposed to eat with those big teeth?
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10-22-2007, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick Larson  I know this is a neccessary teaching to support Young Earth Creationism, but is it a neccessary doctrine to orthodox Christianity? What about Psalm 104:21 (a psalm of creation) where it speaks of lions and their prey, or the Leviathan in Genesis 1? What was he supposed to eat with those big teeth? | Death came through sin (Rom. 5:12)
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10-22-2007, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by joshua Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Larson I know this is a neccessary teaching to support Young Earth Creationism, but is it a neccessary doctrine to orthodox Christianity? What about Psalm 104:21 (a psalm of creation) where it speaks of lions and their prey, or the Leviathan in Genesis 1? What was he supposed to eat with those big teeth? | Death came through sin (Rom. 5:12) | Agreed- Adam died the moment he disobeyed.
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10-22-2007, 01:50 PM
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Sorry, I was not trying to come across as being short with you. What I meant to say is that all death, physical and spiritual, is a product of sin.
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10-22-2007, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick Larson I know this is a neccessary teaching to support Young Earth Creationism, but is it a neccessary doctrine to orthodox Christianity? What about Psalm 104:21 (a psalm of creation) where it speaks of lions and their prey, or the Leviathan in Genesis 1? What was he supposed to eat with those big teeth? | What are some examples of 'orthodox' Christians who beleive there was death before the fall? I know the hyper-preterist believes that, but they are 'unorthodox'.
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10-22-2007, 02:04 PM
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Genesis 1:30 seems to imply that the animals were not given to each other to eat but rather the plant life that was available. So unless the consuming of plant life is included in our definition of death, it is not correct to say that there death before the fall.
As far as the lions and other meat eating animals look at it this way: man was created to eat plant life but later (after the flood) the animal kingdom was given to him to consume as well. If God could create man in such a way to be adapted to either environment, could He not do so with the animal kingdom as well?
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10-22-2007, 02:04 PM
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Actually death is part of creation but man lost dominion over it in the perverse state of the fall that messed up the creation order.
Plants obviously died to be consumed by Adam and the beasts in the garden, whether or not he was vegetarian or not the scriptures are silent but man once had dominion over even death but we lost control when we forsook our stewardship and disobeyed the Lord.
In an ultimate testament to our rebellion we were sentenced to go the way of lesser life forms, ones not created in the glorious image of God and had been intended to be under us.
It seems to me that Adam must have understood what death was since God warned him he would surely die if he ate of the forbidden fruit.
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10-22-2007, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by KMK Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Larson I know this is a neccessary teaching to support Young Earth Creationism, but is it a neccessary doctrine to orthodox Christianity? What about Psalm 104:21 (a psalm of creation) where it speaks of lions and their prey, or the Leviathan in Genesis 1? What was he supposed to eat with those big teeth? | What are some examples of 'orthodox' Christians who beleive there was death before the fall? I know the hyper-preterist believes that, but they are 'unorthodox'. |
I don't know. I didn't even know if it was a part of orthodoxy to believe in no physical death before the fall. That's why I asked the question.
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10-22-2007, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by No Longer A Libertine Actually death is part of creation but man lost dominion over it in the perverse state of the fall that messed up the creation order.
Plants obviously died to be consumed by Adam and the beasts in the garden, whether or not he was vegetarian or not the scriptures are silent but man once had dominion over even death but we lost control when we forsook our stewardship and disobeyed the Lord.
In an ultimate testament to our rebellion we were sentenced to go the way of lesser life forms, ones not created in the glorious image of God and had been intended to be under us.
It seems to me that Adam must have understood what death was since God warned him he would surely die if he ate of the forbidden fruit. | Interesting stuff. It sounds like you have taught on this subject before.
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10-22-2007, 02:10 PM
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Did the plants have to actually die in order for Adam to consume the fruit? Even so, the death of which I speak would be those of animal and human. Arbitrary me.
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10-22-2007, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by joshua Did the plants have to actually die in order for Adam to consume the fruit? Even so, the death of which I speak would be those of animal and human. Arbitrary me. | Was it not Adam's duty to cast out and strike down the serpent? That would've involved killing him.
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10-22-2007, 02:21 PM
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Which serpent? Do you mean the Devil? Nahh...he couldn't have killed him. I think he was not like the other serpents. He was a poser. Only God could kill him. But He's not going to.
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10-22-2007, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by joshua Which serpent? Do you mean the Devil? Nahh...he couldn't have killed him. | Why? Christ is the second Adam fulfilling what Adam failed to do., obey God and crush the serpent.
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10-22-2007, 02:27 PM
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The Devil is a spiritual being. You know as well as I do that such language is symbolic. Did Jesus' foot get bruised by the head of a physical serpent?
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10-22-2007, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by joshua The Devil is a spiritual being. You know as well as I do that such language is symbolic. Did Jesus' foot get bruised by the head of a physical serpent? | My point is that hypothetically Adam could've fulfilled the requirements of him prior to the fall, Christ will destroy Satan, Adam could've hypothetically nipped him in the bud at the start but was disobedient (God's sovereign plan all the same) but you can't just dismiss that the first Adam had dominion over protecting creation prior to the fall and striking down the serpent seems to be implied in his means at the time.
God was furious with his sin of omission, not keeping his wife away from the great deceiver and not keeping the deceiver out of the garden, this before the blasphemy of believing the lie that they could be like God and partaking of the fruit.
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10-22-2007, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by No Longer A Libertine Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua The Devil is a spiritual being. You know as well as I do that such language is symbolic. Did Jesus' foot get bruised by the head of a physical serpent? | My point is that hypothetically Adam could've fulfilled the requirements of him prior to the fall, Christ will destroy Satan, Adam could've hypothetically nipped him in the bud at the start but was disobedient (God's sovereign plan all the same) but you can't just dismiss that the first Adam had dominion over protecting creation prior to the fall and striking down the serpent seems to be implied in his means at the time.
God was furious with his sin of omission, not keeping his wife away from the great deceiver and not keeping the deceiver out of the garden, this before the blasphemy of believing the lie that they could be like God and partaking of the fruit. | That's fine. I don't necessarily disagree. I'm just saying, as we understand death, its presence in God's creation is a result of sin.
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10-22-2007, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by joshua Quote:
Originally Posted by No Longer A Libertine Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua The Devil is a spiritual being. You know as well as I do that such language is symbolic. Did Jesus' foot get bruised by the head of a physical serpent? | My point is that hypothetically Adam could've fulfilled the requirements of him prior to the fall, Christ will destroy Satan, Adam could've hypothetically nipped him in the bud at the start but was disobedient (God's sovereign plan all the same) but you can't just dismiss that the first Adam had dominion over protecting creation prior to the fall and striking down the serpent seems to be implied in his means at the time.
God was furious with his sin of omission, not keeping his wife away from the great deceiver and not keeping the deceiver out of the garden, this before the blasphemy of believing the lie that they could be like God and partaking of the fruit. | That's fine. I don't necessarily disagree. I'm just saying, as we understand death, its presence in God's creation is a result of sin. | I'd say its presence as man's wretched demise is a cause of sin and it has certainly ailed the planet out of its original context as well.
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10-22-2007, 02:40 PM
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So death brought sin?
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10-22-2007, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by joshua So death brought sin? | No sin perverted creation order.
Look at the fall itself, beast went to woman and woman went to man and man agreed to disobey God.
Death could've been in the garden for the good of man and like all else that sin does it perverts and distorts its context.
Now we labor in the soil, now we are subject to an undignified demise, is it not a coincidence that sin tends to make us more animal and beast like instead of image bearers.
It is typically how the modern world tries to classify us as well, just another animal, makes it easier to justify our immorality and the depravity we reap from it that includes death.
Man is subject to death now and not the other way around as it had been in the original order.
But thankfully we take heart in knowing it will be restored in Christ in the future as death fill feel its own sting and perish from existence at least to humanity.
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10-22-2007, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by No Longer A Libertine Actually death is part of creation but man lost dominion over it in the perverse state of the fall that messed up the creation order.
Plants obviously died to be consumed by Adam and the beasts in the garden, whether or not he was vegetarian or not the scriptures are silent but man once had dominion over even death but we lost control when we forsook our stewardship and disobeyed the Lord.
In an ultimate testament to our rebellion we were sentenced to go the way of lesser life forms, ones not created in the glorious image of God and had been intended to be under us.
It seems to me that Adam must have understood what death was since God warned him he would surely die if he ate of the forbidden fruit. |  I agree with this logic - unless one is willing to assert that death-knowledge was implanted, rather than observed.
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