Of course this human institution exists because we are sinful men and women. We will continue to treat our fellow man with disdain.

For instance. I received this from a friend concerning the subject:

In Rome, slavery WAS the norm. It was so in Greece before that. They had Democracy and slavery at the same time. Western society is based on those cultures, slavery is part of our history. It used to be considered "ok", and fairly recently in the US. More and more people considered it wrong, and now everyone consideres it wrong. Evolving moral values.


AT THE TIME, the MAINSTREAM moral values said that slavery was ok. Therefore it was enshrined in law. Most people thought it was ok. Those were the mainstream moral values. People who denied these values were the fringe at the time, the agitators, the weirdos. I bet there were many people such as yoursefl in those days who could quote every holy book passage, claimed they were "chosen by God", denounced homosexuals, and owned slaves

Another example: marrying 12-year-olds. It used to be ok when the average lifespan was 30 years. Now it's totally wrong and immoral. Did God change his mind about that too or were all these people sinners?


Even Aristotle and many others claimed that slavery was "natural", but we knew better then and we know better now. They were wrong. It is not natural and it was never "moral". Slavery is about one being using another being merely as a means to its ends. Sinful men have always enslaved men simply because they are sinful. They will continue to do so. America's long battle with it and Nelson Mandela's troubles have helped to bring our collective consciouses where they always should have been, but each man and each generation will fight that battle on their own. Men and women who are enslaved know it is unnatural. They know it and feel it in their souls. Many accept their plight, knowing they can do nothing about it. Those who enslave--at the beginning at least--KNOW they are doing wrong. As time goes on, however, their conscioius' are seered and they begin to think it is "natural." It isn't. They know all better. Each will be judged for "missing the mark."

Does anyone have any other thoughts on this horrible institution as it relates to natural law?

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~ Steven Bradford ~
Member Covenant Presbyterian, Chattanooga, TN

Well, I'll comment. But I don't think this is what you're looking for.

All men are "naturally" slaves to sin. The elect have been bought with a price and given the freedom to become slaves of Christ. Slavery is natural, and all men are slaves.

I know that's not what you're asking though. So, with that aside, Scripture makes it clear that God ordained slavery. It was a means by which a man could pay off debt. It is equally clear that slaves were bought and sold, and if one chose to he could enslave himself to his owner for the rest of his life (Ex 21; Deu 15). In Jeremiah we repeatedly see God commanding the Israelites to serve Babylon. In context it becomes clear that this is a 70 year slavery. Paul tells slaves to serve their masters well, and slave owners to treat their slaves well. Nowhere does he command the slave owners to free their slaves. Some argument may be given in regard to Paul's letter to Philemon (15 For perhaps he departed for a while for this purpose, that you might receive him forever, 16 no longer as a slave but more than a slave—a beloved brother, especially to me but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord.), but it is inconclusive.

Nowhere does Scripture denounce slavery itself. The reality is that slavery, in and of itself, is not immoral. It is the reason for the slavery that makes it immoral. Enslavement based on ethnicity, age, sex, religion, geography, and such are instances of the strong or powerful imposing their will over the weak or minority. This is, as you say, "about one being using another being merely as a means to its ends.." However, as punishment for crimes it was once common practice in some cultures to make the guilty party serve their victim for a certain amount of time. Is this any more immoral than locking them up? It has also been common to make the soldiers of a conquered enemy serve as slaves. Should they be executed instead?

Much of the misunderstanding in regard to slavery is in light of the cruelty that has accompanied it in some areas during certain periods of time. But in many cultures the slaves were treated like family members. This is also true of American slavery in some instances. Although the reason for the slavery here could never be vindicated, not all slaves were treated poorly. But that's another topic for another day.

So, I don't know that slavery (outside spiritual) is natural. But the morality of it is based on the reason and the treatment involved, not on the existence of the institution itself. Man's dignity as God's image bearer should never be misplaced, regardless of ethnicity, creed or inherent factors. And please, don't turn my statements into some endorsement of slavery (I've experienced this irresponsible overreaction before). I simply made biblical and historical observations.

__________________
For the Glory of our King,
Joe Johnson
Slave of Christ, husband, father, Preacherboy at Cornerstone Community Church, Escanaba, MI. and TMS graduate. Personal website - SoundLife.org

I do not know, and I do not say, that a person cannot believe in Revelation and in evolution, too, for a man may believe that which is infinitely wise and also that which is only asinine. ~ CHS

We certainly have people work off some types of debt and consider it acceptable in our culture. I'm sure everyone has seen people working off certain things by cleaning up trash on the side of the road, etc.
And in my hometown there was a minimum security prison and they would come down and do supervised manual labor in town. We just don't call that slavery anymore because we reserve that word for forced slavery. Paul includes this type of forced slavery under one of his lists of immorality:

"the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for... enslavers" (1Tim 1:9-10)

But it is at least true that we humans' understanding and maturity evolves in regards to understanding the fulness of our sins. And so God accommodates the application of his law in certain senses in regard to our fallen-ness:

"Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so." (Matt 19:8)

Perhaps the allowance of divorce has some parallels to the allowance of other things in the law that we now consider immoral.

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C. Gorsuch
Glencullen Baptist
Portland, Oregon

Watch out Caddy; many folks here read Dadney and - because he is a good theologian - conclude that he was right about slavery. We have many here who would try to justify this horrible practice.

God in the OT regulated some sinful practices, such as divorce and polygamy, but did not condone it. Slavery was one such sin. God regulated it for a time.

While at some times men have voluntarily indentured themselves to pay off debt, or were consigned to manual labor for the conviction of crimes, the black chattel slavery in the US did not fall into those two categories, even though some on this board will try to convince you that the salvery that led to the US Civil War was not sinful. It was, and our nation paid dearly. The cozy picture of slaves and slaveowners living in harmony together in the antebellum south is a fiction.


As it relates to natural law, I suppose someone could argue from reason that since man differs in abilities and intelligence and some nations have "progressed" further than others, that it is not quite unnatural that one nation should rule over another such that the "inferior" nation becomes slaves.



On the bigger issue of evolving moral values: The world does seem to be developing and/or changing in morals. Old sins are exchanged for new sins. Some sins disapear all together. Cannibalism is no longer practiced in the context of whole tribal groups and only occur in bizarre murder cases like Dahmer. Polygamy, slavery, child sacrifice to pagan Gods, religious wars are all on the outs. Now, we manufacture new sins to take their place... and sometimes sins largely disapear altogether. Slavery, for instance has largely disapeared. I don't know if this is because God is moving the world forward and the world is gradually getting better. but I am glad that this phase of history is over.


God certainly did not change his mind on these laws. He did bring the Israelites to greater maturity by specific law injunctions. He did deal with them as children, and so God's revealtion did progress as history progressed (eg, the doctrine of the Trinity becomes clearer and clearer as hisotry advances)...

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

The 13th amendment still has slavery on the books.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

right to bare arms is still on the books and yet I have to get a license to get a gun???????? we are an unconstitutional constitutional republic.

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~Keon Garraway~ Brooklyn, NY Member of Franklin Square OPC

Love for God demonstrated by the love for our children in giving them a God centered education is the only hope for our country. by David Morrow
Pslam 71:20 [Thou], which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

Oh I know. I am familiar with Dabney. I have read some of his work. He was a good theologian, but still a sinful man like the rest of us.

Appreciate the comments.

__________________
~ Steven Bradford ~
Member Covenant Presbyterian, Chattanooga, TN

Yes the 13th amendment allows for involuntary servitude in the evet of a crime.

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Nikki Edmond
Berean Christian Assembly (Reformed Baptist)
Tucson, AZ
HaveATulip Chat Room for Reformed Believers
Principle and Practice Blog
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.

I haven't researched statistical inferences of relations between masters and slaves in the U.S, perhaps some were more benevolent than others. I do know slaves were very expensive, so completely abusing or killing a slave would not be a smart business practice, espeically if you needed their work. This is why for the really dangerous jobs slaves weren't even used, they'd just go hire an irish man to do it.

But in any case I don't know... just the very mindset of owning a slave, not because of anything he did (crime, debt, whatever the bible seems to condone on this matter) but because of a percieved racial or national inferiority does not seem to be moral biblically. But then again what about the claim that it was good that the Europeans brought civilization and Christianity to Africa and other what we consider 3rd world nations. Surely the Lord does work all things together for good, even sin, but the means of sin is never condoned on our part as good simply because God used it for a good end. We're all still held accountable, and I'm sure many slave masters have been held accountable. Although its a bit ironic, I take comfort and fear in God's justice.

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Nikki Edmond
Berean Christian Assembly (Reformed Baptist)
Tucson, AZ
HaveATulip Chat Room for Reformed Believers
Principle and Practice Blog
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.

I haven't read Dabney. Can someone give me a synopsis?

__________________
For the Glory of our King,
Joe Johnson
Slave of Christ, husband, father, Preacherboy at Cornerstone Community Church, Escanaba, MI. and TMS graduate. Personal website - SoundLife.org

I do not know, and I do not say, that a person cannot believe in Revelation and in evolution, too, for a man may believe that which is infinitely wise and also that which is only asinine. ~ CHS

Dabney both defended and critiqued racial slavery.

The error with Dabney is that the bible didn't make the racial distinction that he made. But what Dabney saw that we are all-too embarrassed about is that the Bible didn't start apologizing--like we do--for slavery. Dabney was also put in a hard place because many of the abolitionists were Christ-hating Unitarians. But Dabney was prescient enough to see that the infidel rhetoric of the Unitarians would harden the minds of Southern Christians, which sadly happened.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

care to name some examples and proof of what you are speaking?

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

I can see a Biblical justification for indentured servitude, called "slavery" in some translations of Leviticus; also God allowed for real slavery of other nations conquered in war, which, compared to the Hareem(sp?) seems merciful. This was the common practice in Greece and Rome, these were captured people who weren't put to death, and they could eventually earn or buy their freedom and even citizenship.

I don't think the Bible justifies racial slavery as we knew it in the United States. The 13th Ammendment appears to allow for "chain gangs".

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The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I believe it was YOU that said "The South [Dabney] was correct to say that the Bible sanctioned salvery." on 5-16-2004, on the post "R Dabney and Slavery.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

So? The bible does sanction slavery. To deny that is to deny God's word. Now, as I made clear--and you left out--the bible does not sanction racial slavery, but that does not mean that it doesn't sanction any kind of slavery at all. As history makes abundantly clear, there are many types of slavery. Slavery isn't some vague, abstract evil principle.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

1. It wasn't a Civil War. Was the War for independence from Britain a Civil War? No. The Americans weren't trying to take control of British Parliament. Just like the Southerners were not trying to gain hold of Washington. They just wanted to be freed from it.

2. Slavery did not lead to the War.

3. I don't use Dabney for a source when it comes to defending Southern history. I can't cite the source right now, but I've read some things wherein he discusses racial issues "biblically" and he's way off, quite disappointing actually. By that, I'm noting that slavery was an injustice. But it was one both the North and South shared. And we also can be thankful for God's providence and how He uses evil for good.

4. My God is not Southern. He's Lord. I don't wear confederate flag shirts and wave them around (although, there's nothing wrong with that). I want to be faithful to Him. But at the same time, I don't like the demonization of the South that exists in these times or the exaltation of Lincoln as a great emancipator or humanitarian. He was a tyrant, dictator, white supermacist, and a big government, big spender, big brother liberal.

5. I love my Yankee brethren. And I love you. And I don't want your bud light. I hate racism. I do not support slavery. I hate affirmative action. I hate the idea of reparations. I hate the sinfulness of man. I hate my sin. And sometimes...I hate history, because we all come down on different sides sometimes at the cost of edification of others.

Ok. I hope none of that came across wrong. I hope I wasn't unclear. I hope I'm not reviled for it. Godspeed.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC, Attending CCRPC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
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1689 Baptist Confession

Psa 55:16 As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
Psa 55:17 Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.
James Farley, Wilderness Road Baptist Assembly.
Husband of Melissa and father of Ann.
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