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Natural Revelation and God's Creation discuss The 6th Day according to Schwarzeneger, Clone ethics? in the Theology forums; I just got done watching this movie and it got me thinking. How would we reformed folk respond to a human clone? I'm not talking ...

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    Puritan Sailor's Avatar
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    The 6th Day according to Schwarzeneger, Clone ethics?

    I just got done watching this movie and it got me thinking. How would we reformed folk respond to a human clone? I'm not talking about the morality of human cloning here as I think we will all agree that we shouldn't be messing with that stuff. But say, someone does in fact clone a human and this clone actually survives into adulthood. How should we as reformed Christians treat him? Say he walks into church one day and you happen to meet him. I do have my own opinion on this but I thought I would throw this out there for discussion before I give it.
    Patrick
    MDiv, RTS Jackson
    Pastor, Grace Presbyterian Church (OPC), Lisbon, NY

    "He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.
    "Let us not please ourselves that we have deep understandings, but let us shew our understandings by our practice." Richard Sibbes

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    Patrick,

    I know this isn't where you want to stear the topic but I have to ask, how could they possibly clone a human? They're successful with animals because they don't have a soul. In order for a human to have life, God must create a soul. How are these people going to clone a soul? Any thoughts on this?
    Dan
    OPC
    Pennsylvania

    My religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time for my death. I do not concern myself about that, but to always be ready, no matter when it may overtake me. - Stonewall Jackson

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    What does a soul have to do with cloning? We're talking DNA here. Identical twins have the same DNA yet they have individual souls. So I don't think, if they ever do clone a human that he won't have a soul. But again, I suppose we won't know until it happens. But as sound reformed Christians I think it would be helpful to have some of the ethics figured out before something like this happens so that we are not just reactionary like most of the evangelical world today. So lets assume for the sake of argument that this clone has a soul.
    Patrick
    MDiv, RTS Jackson
    Pastor, Grace Presbyterian Church (OPC), Lisbon, NY

    "He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.
    "Let us not please ourselves that we have deep understandings, but let us shew our understandings by our practice." Richard Sibbes

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    [/quote]We're talking DNA here. Identical twins have the same DNA yet they have individual souls.[quote]

    I understand but what sets us apart from animals (which they're successful at cloning) are our souls. Having children is more than just a physical union. God must create a soul in order for that physical body to live. They may be able to clone parts but in order to have a living human being they need to produce a soul.

    I guess my question would be, do you think God will enter into the picture and let cloning humans be succesful like he enters into the picture in the union of a man and women?

    But o.k., I don't want to ruin your thread so we'll assume that God does enter into the cloning game and allows man to accomplish this. How will I respond to a clone? I have no idea. I've never thought of it before. I'll have to do some thinking on it.
    Dan
    OPC
    Pennsylvania

    My religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time for my death. I do not concern myself about that, but to always be ready, no matter when it may overtake me. - Stonewall Jackson

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    I see your concern. I guess I don't consider it a major objection because of the twin DNA concept and also because God has no problem creating souls in test tube babies. So I don't think it would be an obstacle to God to create a soul for a clone. But again for the sake of argument we'll assume the clone has a soul.
    Patrick
    MDiv, RTS Jackson
    Pastor, Grace Presbyterian Church (OPC), Lisbon, NY

    "He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.
    "Let us not please ourselves that we have deep understandings, but let us shew our understandings by our practice." Richard Sibbes

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    I think the soul is made upon fertilization; physical life as well as spiritual life is created. God told US to be fruitful and multiply, creating Adam and Eve with pure, righteous souls but they fell into sin.

    God does NOT create the soul, because the soul is born sinful, and God is not the author of evil.

    but that's just my :wr50:
    Aaron Cowart
    member, Covenant PCA
    Houston, TX

    Student at Southeast Missouri State University (SEMO)
    Cape Girardeau, MO

    "The hypocrite's religion is divine in name, but human in deed."

    -Richard Baxter

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    The soul is not sinful because of creation, but because of imputation of Adam's sin (Romans 5:12-21).

    God can indeed create the soul
    Fred Greco
    Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
    Christ Church Blog

    "The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

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    I think this topic was discussed at the Council of Orange and they concluded that the idea of God making the soul at birth was heresy, because it makes God the author of sin.

    I didn't mean to say that God never created souls, because he did in both Adam and Eve. Apart from that, the soul is conceived when the sperm fertilizes the egg, completing the DNA ladder.

    Here are our options:

    1. God creates a perfectly righteous soul, plants it in the body and that soul later becomes corrupted (Pelagianism)
    2. God creates a sinful soul and plants it in the body (Hyper Calvinist, if not worse)
    3. Souls pre-exist (Mormonism, JW teaching, Plato and co.)
    4. Souls are created, albeit sinful, upon conception (Transducianism)
    Aaron Cowart
    member, Covenant PCA
    Houston, TX

    Student at Southeast Missouri State University (SEMO)
    Cape Girardeau, MO

    "The hypocrite's religion is divine in name, but human in deed."

    -Richard Baxter

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    [quote:f2f05f221c="Authorised"]I think this topic was discussed at the Council of Orange and they concluded that the idea of God making the soul at birth was heresy, because it makes God the author of sin.

    I didn't mean to say that God never created souls, because he did in both Adam and Eve. Apart from that, the soul is conceived when the sperm fertilizes the egg, completing the DNA ladder.

    Here are our options:

    1. God creates a perfectly righteous soul, plants it in the body and that soul later becomes corrupted (Pelagianism)
    2. God creates a sinful soul and plants it in the body (Hyper Calvinist, if not worse)
    3. Souls pre-exist (Mormonism, JW teaching, Plato and co.)
    4. Souls are created, albeit sinful, upon conception (Transducianism)[/quote:f2f05f221c]
    Apparently this wasn't as easy as I thought it would be. I know this is difficult to discuss without going through the theory but let's ignore that for a second. Because if someone actually does clone a human, then all this specualtion regarding the soul will be thrown out the window. And we will be back to the drawing board. So, then, back to the subject at hand, how do we treat this clone?
    Patrick
    MDiv, RTS Jackson
    Pastor, Grace Presbyterian Church (OPC), Lisbon, NY

    "He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.
    "Let us not please ourselves that we have deep understandings, but let us shew our understandings by our practice." Richard Sibbes

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