Thread: The Arminian "god" is not Worshippable

The contemporary church today is not only accepting Arminius’ teaching, but running after it, selling it in their Christian bookstores (making a profit on heresy), teaching it in their seminaries (so that young and upcoming ministers affect the congregation they will one day pastor), and preaching it from their pulpits to the layman who trusts their pastor’s every word. Arminius taught the secular man’s religion – a religion of works by personal merit – and America is eating it up. Dr. John Owen called it the “brain child” of wickedness. Dr. Jonathan Edwards called it “deep darkness.” Rev. Augustus Toplady called it the “Road back to Roman Catholicism”. Westminster Divine Dr. Robert Leighton called it “the last and greatest monster of the man of sin”. Rev. Christopher Ness called it an “abomination” and “chambers of imagery” (or fabrications). This writer, in like mind, calls it heresy. Suitably, the worship of this “other god” that Arminius created is summarized biblically as idolatry.

More here...

The god of Arminianism is Not Worshippable

I guess I'm not willing to label every Christian, other than 5-point Calvinists, as heretics.

I have no problem calling them heretics. It's not damnable heresy for all of them as the article states..

Arminians are of different stripes. Some people in Arminian churches may be truly converted, ignorant of their church home, and ultimately the Lord will rescue them out of their ignorance for He promises He will not allow His little ones to perish (such a rescue can come from Scriptural truth used in a simple internet article!).

Bravo Matt....BRAVO! this is easily my favorite article of yours and I am sending the link to it to every Arminian friend I know!

They think that since Pastor "œso and so"� is a godly man, what he teaches "œmust"� be right. And this, unfortunately, has been the reason that the heresy of Arminianism has thrived so violently across the last two hundred years of the unsuspecting contemporary church.

This was my problem the same as it remains the problem of many people I know. Just because a pastor, TV evangelist, best selling author, etc. claims something and says it comes from the bible is not reason enough to believe it.

Arminius also taught that his "œgod"� can be frustrated by the will of man because men choose their own destiny and that "œgod"� allows them to do what they want to do without interfering.

Sadly I hear this all of the time from many who claim to be God fearing Christians. They can't even begin to see how those two things conflict. How can you be a God fearing Christian yet believe whole heartedly that God's will depends on the decisions of men?

Yet, at no time will "œgod"� ever violate their free will to make them come to "œhim"� or change their heart first without their consent to do so.

I hear this all of the time as well. It is said with pride even! God will not violate your free will!!!

Spurgeon's Rendition of the Arminian's Prayer

Fancy him praying, `Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not - that is the difference between me and them.'

Originally posted by Puritanhead
Spurgeon's Rendition of the Arminian's Prayer

Fancy him praying, `Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not - that is the difference between me and them.'

WOW! That is a powerful quote.

Originally posted by houseparent
I have no problem calling them heretics. It's not damnable heresy for all of them as the article states..

Arminians are of different stripes. Some people in Arminian churches may be truly converted, ignorant of their church home, and ultimately the Lord will rescue them out of their ignorance for He promises He will not allow His little ones to perish (such a rescue can come from Scriptural truth used in a simple internet article!).

All heresy is damnable. By making a distinction between "damnable" heresy and "non-damnable" heresy, we simply show that we're not really sure of what heresy is... and it reveals that we're wielding a theological broadsword rather than a theolgoical scalpel.

If anything but 5-point Calvinism is really heresy, then this means that those who hold to anything but 5-point Calvinism are damned.

I've not made up my mind but I think it is possible that those who do not see the error in it may be.

Originally posted by houseparent
I've not made up my mind but I think it is possible that those who do not see the error in it may be.

May be what? Damned?

Originally posted by houseparent
I've not made up my mind but I think it is possible that those who do not see the error in it may be.

May be what? Damned?
So Bruce Ware is a heretic?

I think this article would be more forceful if you included some actual quotes from Arminius and the Remonstrants on the key points.

Great piece, Dr. Matt!

Arminians simply do not worship the same God as we. Does anyone feel uncomfortable praying with an Arminian? I do! What should be our response when we find ourselves in that predicament?

I know this sort of speculation is fraught with pitfalls but I can't help wondering about the spiritual state of a life-long Arminian "super-teacher" ('Doctor' is too strong a word) who has been exposed to the doctrines of grace and rejects them.

"To whom much is given, much is required."

Originally posted by SolaScriptura

Originally posted by houseparent
I've not made up my mind but I think it is possible that those who do not see the error in it may be.

May be what? Damned?
So Bruce Ware is a heretic?

No idea who that is, but possibly yes. I believe I was all the years that I believed that nonsense as is everyone who taught it to me.

Originally posted by tcalbrecht
I think this article would be more forceful if you included some actual quotes from Arminius and the Remonstrants on the key points.

You know, I really struggled not to add those in. It would not be hard, but then, I want people to deal with Biblical ideas rather than a "scholarly" article that deals with all thier quotes and the refutation of those quotes.

Arminianism is heresy; all who hold to it are heretics and rightfully will perish. However, as I have said before many times, I have never met a textbook Arminian. I don't believe they exist today. There are strains of people whose theology is in error. The extent of that error will determine where that person is salvifically. An eight year old whom is simply trusting in Christ alone to bring about the ends described in scripture, but knows little about the forensiology of the atonement or is tangled up in the idea that saying a prayer to God at the moment the HS moves them may quite possibly be one of Christs elect. I would not call this person an Arminian but an uneducated person. The bible calls us to study; this implies that as we study, we learn. A person whom has studied and rejected the Calvinist truths in exchange for the Arminiast lies, is heretical and is perishing even now.

A person whom has studied and rejected the Calvinist truths in exchange for the Arminiast lies, is heretical and is perishing even now.

That is pretty much how I feel and the point I wanted to make. There are many still learning, as I was and in many ways still am.

Originally posted by houseparent

A person whom has studied and rejected the Calvinist truths in exchange for the Arminiast lies, is heretical and is perishing even now.

That is pretty much how I feel and the point I wanted to make. There are many still learning, as I was and in many ways still am.

The question remains, how much does a person need to know to be converted? Regeneration is a work of the HS and can occur whilst the person knows very little. Conversion however, requires certain ducks to be in a row.

But we can't know who has been converted until they show some signs of regeneration correct? I showed signs of conversion for YEARS but believed deeply in an Arminian god who allowed me to freely choose Him or not. I believed in the god who would never interfere in anyone's free will and wanted ALL to be saved.

I honestly do not believe I would have entered Heaven had I died believing that goofiness.

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Arminianism is heresy; all who hold to it are heretics and rightfully will perish. However, as I have said before many times, I have never met a textbook Arminian. I don't believe they exist today.

Scott, please don't take offense, but this is a huge cop out on your part. I think you are saying this to escape the obvious logical conclusion of your view that Arminianism is damnable heresy. Just step up to the plate and say that Arminians are damned heretics. Now, if your experience leads you to question the wisdom of this understanding, perhaps you need to reevaluate your understanding of heresy.

I take great exception to you saying that you have never met a "textbook Arminian". I believe that synergism is the natural understanding of man and God, and that it permeates almost all religion. Furthermore, I have met many Arminians that well understand their theological system, and fully embrace it. I have no idea how many are regenerate, but I believe many are. Perhaps the problem is that the Church is assailed by the Pelagian heresy, and there is no ecclesiastical structure to deal with it. Perhaps many regenerate have been carried away by such heresy, but even more so the unregenerate have embraced it to the end of it hardening of their heart.

[Edited on 2-9-2006 by raderag]

Originally posted by houseparent
But we can't know who has been converted until they show some signs of regeneration correct?

We can't know who has been regenerated until they show signs of conversion, i.e. fruits. Even then our judgements can be skewed. The scriptures speak of wolves in sheeps clothing. This means that there will be people that look like believers........

Scott, please don't take offense, but this is a huge cop out on your part. I think you are saying this to escape the obvious logical conclusion of your view that Arminianism is damnable heresy. Just step up to the plate and say that Arminians are damned heretics.

I clearly said that above in my initial post. Are you reading the posts?

"Arminianism is heresy; all who hold to it are heretics and rightfully will perish."

Now, if your experience leads you to question the wisdom of this understanding, perhaps you need to reevaluate your understanding of heresy.

My wisdom is based upon experience and study. I have never met a person whom holds to Arminianism like I hold to calvinism. We openly say, "I am a Calvinist". This equates to the fact that we understand what Calvin espoused about Gods word systematically. Have you ewver met someone whom said this about Arminius?

I take great exception to you saying that you have never met a "textbook Arminian".

I haven't!

I believe that synergism is the natural understanding of man and God, and that it permeates almost all religion.

True.

Furthermore, I have met many Arminians that well understand their theological system, and fully embrace it.

These people are unregenerated. I'm not talking of these. Can one be reformed yet hold to only three points? No! Some might even go to the extent of saying that if one does not hold to all 5 points, they are yet unregenerated/converted. Ask some of these people you speak of to recite that which was penned by the Remonstrants. They may not even know who or what Remonstrants are. Does this remove them from the inert responsibility plaguing themselves, no! Men are responsible. However, what I am pressing here is that I was regenerated under Calvary Chapel preaching. I stepped up to the plate because I was told that "I" needed to. Was it interpreted as synergistic? Absolutely! Did I understand what synergism was, no. God still chose to use that day to bring me unto himself. I did not stay there long. I was obedient to study to show myself approved, a rightful workman of God.

I have no idea how many are regenerate, but I believe many are. Perhaps the problem is that the Church is assailed by the Pelagian heresy, and there is no ecclesiastical structure to deal with it. Perhaps many regenerate have been carried away by such heresy, but even more so the unregenerate have embraced it to the end of it hardening of their heart.

Brett, you are contradicting yourself here. You admit, men are regenerated under this premise? One cannot be regenerate and heretical at the same time.



[Edited on 2-9-2006 by Scott Bushey]

:restraining....restraining...to enter argument before me reads article:

:P

Matt -
Well, you've consigned virtually all non 5-point Calvinists to the abyss.
What's next? A treatise demonstrating that all dispensationalists - even the ones like John MacArthur - are going to hell?
After that, perhaps you would care to finish the job by demonstrating that only those who adhere to the WCF w/o exception, as interpreted by the RPCGA, are saved.

Would any Calvinistic Church allow an Arminian into church communion? If someone within a Calvinistic church was found to have arminian views wouldn't they be censured?

An Arminian is a heretic, and Calvinists are not to associate with them ecclesiastically. We are commanded to mark and avoid those who walk contrary to the doctrine we have received even if they are called "Brothers", ie, born again and saved by Jesus.

[Edited on 2-9-2006 by Peter]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Scott, please don't take offense, but this is a huge cop out on your part. I think you are saying this to escape the obvious logical conclusion of your view that Arminianism is damnable heresy. Just step up to the plate and say that Arminians are damned heretics.

I clearly said that: "Arminianism is heresy; all who hold to it are heretics and rightfully will perish."

But, then you posit Arminianism as a pure hypothetical and imaginary system. You haven't really met one. That sure is convenient.

Now, if your experience leads you to question the wisdom of this understanding, perhaps you need to reevaluate your understanding of heresy.

My wisdom is based upon experience and study. I have never met a person whom holds to Arminianism like I hold to calvinism. We openly say, "I am a Calvinist". This equates to the fact that we understand what Calvin espoused about Gods word systematically. Have you ewver met someone whom said this about Arminius?

In fact, I have met several. In fact I have a friend that knows Calvinism about as well as most Calvinist that I know who happens to be Wesleyan. He holds dearly to everything about this theology. He believes that Dordt was unfairly tried, and believes that when the Church comes to its senses and holds to a higher ecclesiology, Dordt can be retried.

I take great exception to you saying that you have never met a "textbook Arminian".

I haven't!

Well, you really need to get out more, because they are all over the place. There are at least as many knowledgeable Arminians as Calvinists.

I believe that synergism is the natural understanding of man and God, and that it permeates almost all religion.

True.

Furthermore, I have met many Arminians that well understand their theological system, and fully embrace it.

These people are unregenerated. I'm not talking of these.

Well, what you said sounds like an excuse for all Arminians. I just think the caveat that you haven´t met a real Arminian needs to be axed. Either, you need to meet one, or you just need to realize they are more numerous than this statement would indicate. Personally, I believe you are reducing these issues past absurdity as it requires something more that knowledge of the Gospel for justification. While the Arminian system clearly distorts the correct understanding of the Gospel, it is contained within the system of doctrine.

Can one be reformed yet hold to only three points? No! Some might even go to the extent of saying that if one does not hold to all 5 points, they are yet unregenerated/converted. Ask some of these people you speak of to recite that which was penned by the Remonstrants. They may not even know who or what Remonstrants are. Does this remove them from the inert responsibility plaguing themselves, no! Men are responsible. However, what I am pressing here is that I was regenerated under Calvary Chapel preaching. I stepped up to the plate because I was told that "I" needed to. Was it interpreted as synergistic? Absolutely! Did I understand what synergism was, no. God still chose to use that day to bring me unto himself. I did not stay there long. I was obedient to study to show myself approved, a rightful workman of God.

I have no idea how many are regenerate, but I believe many are. Perhaps the problem is that the Church is assailed by the Pelagian heresy, and there is no ecclesiastical structure to deal with it. Perhaps many regenerate have been carried away by such heresy, but even more so the unregenerate have embraced it to the end of it hardening of their heart.

Brett, you are contradicting yourself here. You admit, men are regenerated under this premise? One cannot be regenerate and heretical at the same time.

I am not contradicting myself, but rather I refuse to put this issue in a modernistic reduction. Objectively, all forms of Pelagianism are heresy. What that means might not be as simple as you would have it. I think the implications of heresy are both ecclesiastical as well as soteriological. It is heresy because of how it divides the Church, and because it can lead one to put their trust in a false god. That doesn´t mean that everyone who logically embraces Arminianism is not trusting Christ alone. Unless we turst Christ with our intellect alone. I agree with Matthew that the Arminian god is a false one, but then again so is the god of any system that is in error. The god of someone that happens to hold to this heresy may or may not be the true God. Any error in theology is due to a misunderstanding of who God is, and therefore could be say to worship a false god. Arminians can have the right Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, can believe in justification by faith, and can even believe that salvation is from grace. The same cannot be said about Muslims, Mormons, and even some Presbyterians.

[Edited on 2-9-2006 by raderag]

Brett,
Am I misunderstanding you? Here's what you said:

I have no idea how many are regenerate, but I believe many are.

When you refer to 'many', you are referring to what? Arminians? Or people that have an erred theology?

Scott previosuly wrote:

I clearly said that: "Arminianism is heresy; all who hold to it are heretics and rightfully will perish."

Brett responds:

But, then you posit Arminianism as a pure hypothetical and imaginary system. You haven't really met one. That sure is convenient.

I never said that. Show me where I said that??? Arminianism is real. There are strains of error today, but none are pure bred/Remonstrant Arminians. Arminianism is heresy and those whom hold to it will perish. However, it would take exposure to both theological systems and then subsequent rejection of the correct system to rightly label someone Arminian. As I have clearly said, I was regenerated in a Calvary Chapel. My conversion was schizophrenically radical! The old Scott Bushey literally died that day. Was I Arminian? Well, lets just say I was ignorant of the total truth of Gods word. That did not make me a heretic or banish me to hades. God is longsuffering. infants whom God regenerates and convert at early ages does not perish, is not heretical for lack of understanding.

In fact, I have met several. In fact I have a friend that knows Calvinism about as well as most Calvinist that I know who happens to be Wesleyan. He holds dearly to everything about this theology. He believes that Dordt was unfairly tried, and believes that when the Church comes to its senses and holds to a higher ecclesiology, Dordt can be retried.

I have never met any of these types outside of Roman Catholics.

Brett previously wrote:

I take great exception to you saying that you have never met a "textbook Arminian".

Scott responds in a gentlemanly type manner:

I haven't!

Brett reduces the conversation to personal attacks:

Well, you really need to get out more, because they are all over the place. There are at least as many knowledgeable Arminians as Calvinists.

Brett continues:

Well, what you said sounds like an excuse for all Arminians.

Not an excuse. The benefit of the doubt for them whom have yet to learn Gods ways. The bible calls men to study. This mandate proves that knowledge is given to them that seek it and that knowledge is a building process. Neither you or I knew the things we know today. You had no idea of forensic justification when you were regenerated.

I just think the caveat that you haven´t met a real Arminian needs to be axed. Either, you need to meet one, or you just need to realize they are more numerous than this statement would indicate.

I know what an Arminian is and i know what error is. There is a big difference between a practicing Arminian and someone whom is in error for lack of knowledge. There is as well a difference between error and heresy. I never met someone whom held to error once exposed to truth by Gods spirit.

Personally, I believe you are reducing these issues past absurdity as it requires something more that knowledge of the Gospel for justification.

Really? Is that what the bible says? I believe the scriptures say that if one will believe they will be saved! Accept, receive, believe, repent............

Originally posted by houseparent
I honestly do not believe I would have entered Heaven had I died believing that goofiness.

and

Originally posted by SolaScriptura
Matt -
Well, you've consigned virtually all non 5-point Calvinists to the abyss.
What's next? A treatise demonstrating that all dispensationalists - even the ones like John MacArthur - are going to hell?
After that, perhaps you would care to finish the job by demonstrating that only those who adhere to the WCF w/o exception, as interpreted by the RPCGA, are saved.

Arminians believe in works righteousness, and believing that they have saving faith contradicts not only scripture, but the WCF:

Westminster Confession of Faith
14:2

By this faith, a Christian believeth to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word, for the authority of God Himself speaking therein; and acteth differently upon that which each particular passage thereof containeth; yielding obedience to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life, and that which is to come. But the principal acts of saving faith are accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.

Westminster Larger Catechism
Question 72: What is justifying faith?

Answer: Justifying faith is a saving grace, wrought in the heart of a sinner by the Spirit and Word of God, whereby he, being convinced of his sin and misery, and of the disability in himself and all other creatures to recover him out of his lost condition, not only assents to the truth of the promise of the gospel, but receives and rests upon Christ and his righteousness, therein held forth, for pardon of sin, and for the accepting and accounting of his person righteous in the sight of God for salvation.

Originally posted by SolaScriptura
I guess I'm not willing to label every Christian, other than 5-point Calvinists, as heretics.

Originally posted by Peter
Would any Calvinistic Church allow an Arminian into church communion? If someone within a Calvinistic church was found to have arminian views wouldn't they be censured?

An Arminian is a heretic, and Calvinists are not to associate with them ecclesiastically. We are commanded to mark and avoid those who walk contrary to the doctrine we have received even if they are called "Brothers", ie, born again and saved by Jesus.

A Display of Arminianism by John Owen:

One church cannot wrap in her communion Austin and Pelagius, Calvin and Arminius. I have here only given you a taste, whereby you may judge of the rest of their fruit,"”"œmors in olla, mors in olla;"� their doctrine of the final apostasy of the elect, of true believers, of a wavering hesitancy concerning our present grace and future glory, with divers others, I have wholly omitted: those I have produced are enough to make their abettors incapable of our church-communion. The sacred bond of peace compasseth only the unity of that Spirit; which leadeth into all truth. We must not offer the right hand of fellowship, but rather proclaim iJerolemon, [4] "œa holy war,"� to such enemies of God´s providence, Christ´s merit, and the powerful operation of the Holy Spirit. Neither let any object, that all the Arminians do not openly profess all these errors I have recounted. Let ours, then, show wherein they differ from their masters. [5] We see their own confessions; we know their arts, ba>qh kai< meqodei>av tou~ Santana~,"”"œthe depths and crafts of Satan;"� we know the several ways they have to introduce and insinuate their heterodoxies into the minds of men. With some they appear only to dislike our doctrine of reprobation; with others, to claim an allowable liberty of the will: but yet, for the most part,"”like the serpent, wherever she gets in her head, she will wriggle in her whole body, sting and all,"”give but the least admission, and the whole poison must be swallowed.

Originally posted by Draught Horse

Originally posted by SolaScriptura
I guess I'm not willing to label every Christian, other than 5-point Calvinists, as heretics.

I don't remember anyone doing that.

Originally posted by houseparent

Originally posted by SolaScriptura

Originally posted by houseparent
I've not made up my mind but I think it is possible that those who do not see the error in it may be.

May be what? Damned?
So Bruce Ware is a heretic?

No idea who that is, but possibly yes. I believe I was all the years that I believed that nonsense as is everyone who taught it to me.

Bruce Ware is a known critic of open theism. Four point Calvinist, though. Faith alone isn't good enough, evidently. I agree with Ben on this one.

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel

Originally posted by Draught Horse

Originally posted by SolaScriptura
I guess I'm not willing to label every Christian, other than 5-point Calvinists, as heretics.

I don't remember anyone doing that.

Jeff,
If one is not a 5 pointer, the system falls apart at the seams. In that, the error left remaining would resemble a component of the Arminian system.

I will leave it up to God's judgement... Though, I grant sticking up for sound soteriology is no less important than upholding the fundamentals, the Trinity, the incarnation, and the Deity of Christ, et al.

However, I think we should be weary of the trap of thinking someone's failure to exegete Romans 9 properly is damnable. I've ran into those intellectual assent Calvinists, and I don't think it is prudent to embrace.

Arminianism is darkness, because it gives man a cause to boast. The legalists and the false teachers will face God's judgement.

Yet I do think grace can abound all the more and Christ's blood can save regenerate man in spite of some dubious doctrines. God will give a great number of Christians a wake up call. Likewise, y'all might be surprised to find some Charismatics, Catholics and Orthodox as risen souls when we get to Heaven. Of course, they will find out we were right all along. Soli Deo Gloria!

[Edited on 2-9-2006 by Puritanhead]

Originally posted by Puritanhead
I will leave it up to God's judgement... Though, I grant sticking up for sound soteriology is no less important than upholding the fundamentals, the Trinity, the incarnation, and the Deity of Christ, et al.

However, I think we should be weary of the trap of thinking someone's failure to exegete Romans 9 properly is damnable. I've ran into those intellectual assent Calvinists, and I don't think it is prudent to embrace.

Arminianism is darkness, because it gives man a cause to boast. The legalists and the false teachers will face God's judgement.

Yet I do think grace can abound all the more and Christ's blood can save regenerate man in spite of some dubious doctrines. God will give a great number of Christians a wake up call. Likewise, y'all might be surprised to find some Charismatics, Catholics and Catholics as risen souls when we get to Heaven. Of course, they will find out we were right all along. Soli Deo Gloria!

Ryan,
I believe the error would have to be corrected prior to their glorification.

Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel

Originally posted by Draught Horse

Originally posted by SolaScriptura
I guess I'm not willing to label every Christian, other than 5-point Calvinists, as heretics.

I don't remember anyone doing that.

Jeff,
If one is not a 5 pointer, the system falls apart at the seams. In that, the error left remaining would resemble a component of the Arminian system.

Not necessarily. There is a difference between ignorance of a thing and believing a thing.

I agree that if anyone denies the five points, they are headed for destruction, but what if someone has never heard of them? If presented with them, and then he agrees, that is one thing, but if he is presented with them, and rejects them, that is another.

I think more helpful way of looking at "Arminians" is "Who believes that their free will saved them?" "Who believes that they in any way contributed to their salvation?"

The Arminians surely do believe they contribute (not only a little...) but make the ULTIMATE DECIDING FACTOR!

When judging a person's gospel, it must come down to faith vs. works / grace vs. merit. Saving faith is the former...the road to hell is the latter.

Not necessarily. There is a difference between ignorance of a thing and believing a thing.

Jeff,
I agree. Thats why I used the term 'error' and 'resemble'.

[Edited on 2-9-2006 by Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by Puritanhead
I will leave it up to God's judgement... Though, I grant sticking up for sound soteriology is no less important than upholding the fundamentals, the Trinity, the incarnation, and the Deity of Christ, et al.

However, I think we should be weary of the trap of thinking someone's failure to exegete Romans 9 properly is damnable. I've ran into those intellectual assent Calvinists, and I don't think it is prudent to embrace.

Arminianism is darkness, because it gives man a cause to boast. The legalists and the false teachers will face God's judgement.

Yet I do think grace can abound all the more and Christ's blood can save regenerate man in spite of some dubious doctrines. God will give a great number of Christians a wake up call. Likewise, y'all might be surprised to find some Charismatics, Catholics and Catholics as risen souls when we get to Heaven. Of course, they will find out we were right all along. Soli Deo Gloria!

Ryan...the gospel is something...and it must be believed to be saved. Remember....it is not our intellect that saves us, but God that gives us the faith in the TRUE gospel.

Nobody is condeming the Arminians because "they are not as smart as us Calvinists." That's not it at all. It is because:

1) The bible says the gospel is one of free grace and by faith alone

2) That this gospel must be believed, and because Christ is the author of this faith, he cannot fail. He will give us faith in the true gospel.

3) Therefore, anyone believing a false gospel (one of works/merit) cannot be converted.