White vs. Shishko - Page 3

Semper Fidelis · #81 (**permalink**) 08-20-2007, 12:33 AM

Anthony,

I have been personal friends with Dr. White for 7 years.

When I started a thread on the Puritanboard challenging Dr. White on his inconsistencies, I sent him a personal e-mail so that he could interact here if he desired. I don't post things behind people's backs that I'm not willing to interact with them on to their face. To do so in Dr. White's case would be to stab a friend in the back.

CalvinandHodges · #82 (**permalink**) 08-20-2007, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

I was able to attend this debate. Pastor Shishko was able to present much of his material from his lengthy series of bible studies which are available on sermon audio.
Pastor Shishko is a faithful minister of God's word and sought to present the padeo position in the time allowed. I am sure both men would have liked much more time to develop some of their theological threads. Pastor Shishko was very good on showing how God has indeed worked in times past in families and households and this was one of the most instructive parts of His presentation.
Many times in baptist churches there is not as much an emphasis on this as there should be . Pastor Shishko sought to frame this out and demonstrate it and the material he put out was worthwhile.
James White went about to give a Reformed Baptist presentation of what took place in the book of Acts. James White was able to show some inconsistencies in the position offered.
The men made it clear that they were brothers in Christ by new birth. They were not looking to make personal attacks as that is not productive.
There were times when I felt that a more forceful arguement could have been offered in a decisive way, but I sensed a letting up if you will with the answer being pointed too,but not completely pressed home.
The question and answer portion was short imo. We were allowed one written question with no follow up. The next time I speak with Dr.White I will invite him to come onto the puritanboard and watch you explain to him his "mistaken presuppositions"

Greetings:

Hearing James White's presentation at that time I doubt very highly that he would do so, because any paedo here would clean his clock.

The more you get to know him the more you will realize that Dr. White will not debate a person he senses will get the best of him. Dr. White goes after easy targets: KJO fanatics, Mormons, Roman Catholics, etc...

You do not need to wait to speak with him. You can email him and ask him to do so.

Blessings,

-CH

Iconoclast · #83 (**permalink**) 08-20-2007, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notgollum

I have to agree with Bruce.
Pastor Shishko simply did not have the time to do what Scott has suggested although there were times he did bring up the covenant.
There were many RB's attending and I am certain PS tried his best to communicate his understanding of baptism with them primarily in mind.

Also having attended the debate White seemed at times flustered by Shishko's cross examination especially when the question of what age would you baptize. White's answer was "that is a pastoral matter".
To me it looked like James was in the "principal's office".

The look you are describing was James White trying to ease up. there were several series of questions that pastor Shishko basically side stepped and Dr.White let it go
Dr.White pointed out that the padeo baptist on the issue of padeo communion does the same thing as the baptist in reference to believers baptism. Do you also remember the series of questions about the adult who comes to faith but has children,not just infants some of whom deny the faith ,or some older than infants.
Dr . White raised the issue and then backed off. Both men did not have enough time to do much more.

Iconoclast · #84 (**permalink**) 08-20-2007, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

Anthony,

I have been personal friends with Dr. White for 7 years.

When I started a thread on the Puritanboard challenging Dr. White on his inconsistencies, I sent him a personal e-mail so that he could interact here if he desired. I don't post things behind people's backs that I'm not willing to interact with them on to their face. To do so in Dr. White's case would be to stab a friend in the back.

Rich, did he say he would come in? Did he respond to you in email? I will discuss it with him the next chance I have.
I know he he really working on the upcoming Islamic debate[ shabir allie]sp?
He has a growing concern as many of us do that Islam is spreading like a plague and needs to be addressed.
He comes out here once in awhile and is a frequent guest on a local christian radio show,iron sharpens iron, which is on mon-fri on the internet, at 3pm-4pm est.it is on 1440 spirit of ny. They have various pastors and guests on. It is small but growing

CalvinandHodges · #85 (**permalink**) 08-20-2007, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

Quote:

Originally Posted by notgollum

I have to agree with Bruce.
Pastor Shishko simply did not have the time to do what Scott has suggested although there were times he did bring up the covenant.
There were many RB's attending and I am certain PS tried his best to communicate his understanding of baptism with them primarily in mind.

Also having attended the debate White seemed at times flustered by Shishko's cross examination especially when the question of what age would you baptize. White's answer was "that is a pastoral matter".
To me it looked like James was in the "principal's office".

The look you are describing was James White trying to ease up. there were several series of questions that pastor Shishko basically side stepped and Dr.White let it go
Dr.White pointed out that the padeo baptist on the issue of padeo communion does the same thing as the baptist in reference to believers baptism. Do you also remember the series of questions about the adult who comes to faith but has children,not just infants some of whom deny the faith ,or some older than infants.
Dr . White raised the issue and then backed off. Both men did not have enough time to do much more.

Nonsence Anthony!

The criteria for communion is different than that of Baptism. Communion requires one to be able to discern the body and blood of Christ, and to examine oneself to make sure that one is in the faith. These are not requirments for Baptism.

-CH

Iconoclast · #86 (**permalink**) 08-20-2007, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalvinandHodges

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

I was able to attend this debate. Pastor Shishko was able to present much of his material from his lengthy series of bible studies which are available on sermon audio.
Pastor Shishko is a faithful minister of God's word and sought to present the padeo position in the time allowed. I am sure both men would have liked much more time to develop some of their theological threads. Pastor Shishko was very good on showing how God has indeed worked in times past in families and households and this was one of the most instructive parts of His presentation.
Many times in baptist churches there is not as much an emphasis on this as there should be . Pastor Shishko sought to frame this out and demonstrate it and the material he put out was worthwhile.
James White went about to give a Reformed Baptist presentation of what took place in the book of Acts. James White was able to show some inconsistencies in the position offered.
The men made it clear that they were brothers in Christ by new birth. They were not looking to make personal attacks as that is not productive.
There were times when I felt that a more forceful arguement could have been offered in a decisive way, but I sensed a letting up if you will with the answer being pointed too,but not completely pressed home.
The question and answer portion was short imo. We were allowed one written question with no follow up. The next time I speak with Dr.White I will invite him to come onto the puritanboard and watch you explain to him his "mistaken presuppositions"

Greetings:

Hearing James White's presentation at that time I doubt very highly that he would do so, because any paedo here would clean his clock.

The more you get to know him the more you will realize that Dr. White will not debate a person he senses will get the best of him. Dr. White goes after easy targets: KJO fanatics, Mormons, Roman Catholics, etc...

You do not need to wait to speak with him. You can email him and ask him to do so.

Blessings,

-CH

Rob,
You have gotten to know Dr.White,and he confided in you that he only goes after easy targets? He is afraid to come in here,because he would "get his clock cleaned"
Are you sure of this? I do not think he thinks of brothers in Christ as 'targets'!
It looks like he targets false gospels,not christian brethren!
Rob, I read most of your posts and I know you have a seeming zeal for truth. I hope that some of this zeal translates to a zeal for lost souls.
Did you ever hear a presentation where the person has much truth but lacks grace or patience and instead of communicating they drive away the hearer by a lack of charity?
If you have spoken to Dr. White face to face and voiced your concerns to him,I am more than sure that he would discuss any issue you choose time permitting

tellville · #87 (**permalink**) 08-20-2007, 01:19 AM

Rob, you should call James White's show! I know you disagree with him on Baptism and Textual Criticism. Why not just talk to the man himself? I personally would like to hear a dialogue between you too.

Semper Fidelis · #88 (**permalink**) 08-20-2007, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

Anthony,

I have been personal friends with Dr. White for 7 years.

When I started a thread on the Puritanboard challenging Dr. White on his inconsistencies, I sent him a personal e-mail so that he could interact here if he desired. I don't post things behind people's backs that I'm not willing to interact with them on to their face. To do so in Dr. White's case would be to stab a friend in the back.

Rich, did he say he would come in? Did he respond to you in email? I will discuss it with him the next chance I have.
I know he he really working on the upcoming Islamic debate[ shabir allie]sp?
He has a growing concern as many of us do that Islam is spreading like a plague and needs to be addressed.
He comes out here once in awhile and is a frequent guest on a local christian radio show,iron sharpens iron, which is on mon-fri on the internet, at 3pm-4pm est.it is on 1440 spirit of ny. They have various pastors and guests on. It is small but growing

He was really, really busy at the time. His baptism debate occured about the same time as the Tomb Story surfaced and he wrote that book in two weeks of straight work. I think he was a bit busy to take it up but I'm always willing to interact.

I'm actually not that concerned either way. I love listening to his show and the topics he takes up in defense of orthodoxy. If he has time to come in here and interact on the thread I started asking about his own consistency then I'm quite willing to interact. He does have a username here.

Iconoclast · #89 (**permalink**) 08-20-2007, 01:47 AM

Rich,
Thanks for your response. I would like to ask your opinion on something.
If I read a book or article and would like to question it,do you think it would be wise to take up that persons time or it is better to interact on this type of forum until such an opportunity might present itself,like at a family conference?
Most of the time there is good interaction and links offered here and that is very valuable.
What would you say?

Semper Fidelis · #90 (**permalink**) 08-20-2007, 01:56 AM

I'm not sure I understand the question.

If I'm reading you properly then you seem to suggest that I shouldn't have posted the interaction specifically challenging Dr. White's assertions on the board until I had the time to interact personally.

If that is what you mean then I would disagree. It was a publically moderated debate where he challenged paedo-baptists as a class on their consistency with Scripture. I responded and challenged in like manner. His brethren of like mind took up the challenge. Debate participants know they're going to open themselves up to public discussion. They can't possibly interact with everybody, personally, they might have addressed as a group.

If you meant something else by the question then please clarify because I want to make sure I answered your question.

Iconoclast · #91 (**permalink**) 08-20-2007, 02:04 AM

Rich,
No , I was not talking about that. I mean if I read a book by David Englesma and have questions. Should I write Him directly,or should I use the book to raise the questions in a forum like the puritanboard? This way it does not come across as an attack,but more of a questioning for clarification. Sometimes I see some really good responses in here.
But if others have not read the book,or heard a particular sermon they might not feel as comfortable defending someone elses position.[ i do not think Prof. Englesma would feel uncomfortable, lol. ] But sometimes I am not so sure what to do. Do you think the response to the book would be looked at as welcomed?

CalvinandHodges · #92 (**permalink**) 08-20-2007, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tellville

Rob, you should call James White's show! I know you disagree with him on Baptism and Textual Criticism. Why not just talk to the man himself? I personally would like to hear a dialogue between you too.

Hey:

The problem with calling him on his radio show is the limited time allowed on an issue that requires a lot of information. His radio show is also set up in a way so as to make him look good - this is typical of any call-in radio show, like, for example, Rush Limbaugh. Also, Dr. White is practiced on the Radio where such would be my first time. Being uncomfortable in such a situation would be a detriment to the argument.

Why will Dr. White not appear here on the Puritanboard? I have invited him to do so about a year or so ago. Putting things in writing is a more sure record of his thoughts. It is apparent that he uses logical fallacies in order to promote his views. Such fallacies would be clearer, and easier for me to point out, if he wrote them down rather than in a debate or radio show.

Iconoclast:

"Seeming zeal for truth"? Where do you get that from? Are you accusing me of insincerity? That is an amazing statement from a guy who never met me. One could point out your lack of charity here - could one not?

As for White choosing easy targets - it is obvious from his website. Does he engage in the arguments of Robinson and Pierpont? Does he belittle Dr. Theodore Letis? Especially since Dr. Letis is dead and cannot defend himself? Reading his website over the last three months he has not engaged a godly scholar on the TR, but simply posts articles relating to the KJO fanatics. There is an endless list of errors that Dr. White engages in, but he has poisoned the well with his KJO rhetoric.

It seems to me that a person like Dr. White who lumps all defenders of the Textus Receptus as being KJO fanatics is uncharitable. So, the answer is yes I have seen people present their views as being uncharitable.

Grace and Peace,

-CH

Semper Fidelis · #93 (**permalink**) 08-20-2007, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

Rich,
No , I was not talking about that. I mean if I read a book by David Englesma and have questions. Should I write Him directly,or should I use the book to raise the questions in a forum like the puritanboard? This way it does not come across as an attack,but more of a questioning for clarification. Sometimes I see some really good responses in here.
But if others have not read the book,or heard a particular sermon they might not feel as comfortable defending someone elses position.[ i do not think Prof. Englesma would feel uncomfortable, lol. ] But sometimes I am not so sure what to do. Do you think the response to the book would be looked at as welcomed?

Not per se. I think if he's willing to answer your questions directly that would be cool. If you have questions about it here then I don't think it is bad to bring them up here as there are plenty that can responsibly answer in a way that Prof. Englesma would have. I think the recent interaction on the Sola Scriptura thread is a good example of how Godly men can disagree in a way that does not come across as mean-spirited.

tellville · #94 (**permalink**) 08-20-2007, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalvinandHodges

Quote:

Originally Posted by tellville

Rob, you should call James White's show! I know you disagree with him on Baptism and Textual Criticism. Why not just talk to the man himself? I personally would like to hear a dialogue between you too.

Hey:

The problem with calling him on his radio show is the limited time allowed on an issue that requires a lot of information. His radio show is also set up in a way so as to make him look good - this is typical of any call-in radio show, like, for example, Rush Limbaugh. Also, Dr. White is practiced on the Radio where such would be my first time. Being uncomfortable in such a situation would be a detriment to the argument.

Why will Dr. White not appear here on the Puritanboard? I have invited him to do so about a year or so ago. Putting things in writing is a more sure record of his thoughts. It is apparent that he uses logical fallacies in order to promote his views. Such fallacies would be clearer, and easier for me to point out, if he wrote them down rather than in a debate or radio show.

Hmmmm. I think a lot of people use this as an excuse to not phone his program and challenge him. I can appreciate that as he has incredible rhetoric skills. But if you really want to challenge him or you think he is grossly in error, then no matter how good at rhetoric he is it wouldn't matter. If what he was saying was false the truth would come out.

Personally at the moment I agree with Dr. White on pretty much everything

But I would like to see people challenge him more often as opposed to people just poising the well about him.

CalvinandHodges · #95 (**permalink**) 08-20-2007, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tellville

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalvinandHodges

Quote:

Originally Posted by tellville

Rob, you should call James White's show! I know you disagree with him on Baptism and Textual Criticism. Why not just talk to the man himself? I personally would like to hear a dialogue between you too.

Hey:

The problem with calling him on his radio show is the limited time allowed on an issue that requires a lot of information. His radio show is also set up in a way so as to make him look good - this is typical of any call-in radio show, like, for example, Rush Limbaugh. Also, Dr. White is practiced on the Radio where such would be my first time. Being uncomfortable in such a situation would be a detriment to the argument.

Why will Dr. White not appear here on the Puritanboard? I have invited him to do so about a year or so ago. Putting things in writing is a more sure record of his thoughts. It is apparent that he uses logical fallacies in order to promote his views. Such fallacies would be clearer, and easier for me to point out, if he wrote them down rather than in a debate or radio show.

Hmmmm. I think a lot of people use this as an excuse to not phone his program and challenge him. I can appreciate that as he has incredible rhetoric skills. But if you really want to challenge him or you think he is grossly in error, then no matter how good at rhetoric he is it wouldn't matter. If what he was saying was false the truth would come out.

Personally at the moment I agree with Dr. White on pretty much everything

But I would like to see people challenge him more often as opposed to people just poising the well about him.

Hi:

That is a good point. It is an excuse, but the question is - is it a good excuse or not? Would you be more persuaded by a person who appears sure of himself, but is wrong? The history of debate proves this concept correct - Adolf Hitler for example. A person, like yourself, who is preconditioned to believe in credo-baptism is not going to be persuaded by a first time caller on a Radio show. Would he? Also, the person sitting on the fence would not be so convinced.

I think it would be great to debate Dr. White here on the Puritanboard, but I just don't think he would agree to it because the record would show his errors.

Such is life.

May God richly bless you,

-Rob

Semper Fidelis · #96 (**permalink**) 08-20-2007, 03:08 AM

Rob,

I would caution you not to ascribe motive to Dr. White. He is a personal friend and, like all men, has his faults and may overstate his polemics at times. I have heard him make note that there are some who are not in the lunatic fringe that disagree. He has a tendency to overstate on some issues. You must admit, however, that the bulk of KJVO are the worst kind of friends you could hope to have on the subject. His polemics are typically aimed at them from what I've seen.

Thus, unless you have actual evidence of motive, do not use the Board to infer one. The man is extremely busy. I do not agree with him on the subject of Baptism but I don't attribute the fact that he has interacted little on this board to anything other than his schedule.

Finally, I would agree with you that not everyone is cut out for a give and take on a "radio" format. Some are able to both write and speak well but oration is not necessarily the mark of the best argument. Some very brilliant writers are not very good public speakers and the validity of their arguments should not be measured in that vein.

tellville · #97 (**permalink**) 08-20-2007, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalvinandHodges

Hi:

That is a good point. It is an excuse, but the question is - is it a good excuse or not? Would you be more persuaded by a person who appears sure of himself, but is wrong? The history of debate proves this concept correct - Adolf Hitler for example. A person, like yourself, who is preconditioned to believe in credo-baptism is not going to be persuaded by a first time caller on a Radio show. Would he? Also, the person sitting on the fence would not be so convinced.

I think it would be great to debate Dr. White here on the Puritanboard, but I just don't think he would agree to it because the record would show his errors.

Such is life.

May God richly bless you,

-Rob

Maybe you should do a critical review of his KJV only book, or maybe his lectures and debates on Baptism? If you posted enough substantial critique you would probably eventually pull him out of the woodwork. If you write quality stuff, somebody is bound to tell him about it.

As for being preconditioned for the credo position: I probably am. Which is probably why it makes a lot more sense to me at the moment

But I would be lying if I didn't say that the padeo position has me quite intrigued and starting in September I will be beginning a very in depth study of the subject. I expect it to be a long, agonizing, tough, but in the end very beneficial study.

God bless, brother!

CalvinandHodges · #98 (**permalink**) 08-20-2007, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

Rob,

I would caution you not to ascribe motive to Dr. White. He is a personal friend and, like all men, has his faults and may overstate his polemics at times. I have heard him make note that there are some who are not in the lunatic fringe that disagree. He has a tendency to overstate on some issues. You must admit, however, that the bulk of KJVO are the worst kind of friends you could hope to have on the subject. His polemics are typically aimed at them from what I've seen.

Thus, unless you have actual evidence of motive, do not use the Board to infer one. The man is extremely busy. I do not agree with him on the subject of Baptism but I don't attribute the fact that he has interacted little on this board to anything other than his schedule.

Finally, I would agree with you that not everyone is cut out for a give and take on a "radio" format. Some are able to both write and speak well but oration is not necessarily the mark of the best argument. Some very brilliant writers are not very good public speakers and the validity of their arguments should not be measured in that vein.

Thank you Rich. I happen to agree with Dr. White concerning the lunatic fringe of the KJO movement. However, does this really need to be constantly pointed out? He harps on this issue so much that he has poisoned the well with those scholars who are legitimate on this issue. He simply has to label someone "KJO" and who will listen to the argument? Now, is that charitable?

Now, as for his motives concerning self-promotion? Well, I was in attendance at Hope Reformed Baptist Church during his "visits" to Long Island. Back in 1998 or '97 he preached at the church. The "sermon" was all about himself and full of stories and anecdotes about his apologetic work - there was nothing in it about Christ. And this was a sermon on Sunday morning! His book, The Potter's Freedom has on the first few pages lists of various Reformed men who endorse the book. At the end of it he gives a webpage where you can read even more testimonies! Why all the self-promotion? Is self-centeredness a Christian virtue? Excepting for yourself - he attracts other such egoists like Chris Arnzen.

I do not consider James White as a friend (not that he is an enemy either), but I have enough experience with him to make some inferences. The word "I" is constantly in his vocabulary: "I did this," "I did that," "I spoke here" etc...

If you took a step back and actually reveiwed his website I think you would be able to catch the drift of this point. I am no psychologist, but I have taken several courses on the subject, and Dr. White's behavior is reminiscent of a man with an inferiority complex.

Now, is this unsubstantiated? In my opinion it is not, but simply my experience with the man as well as the objective material he has produced both on the internet and in writing. He goes after soft targets because it makes him look good. He is "too busy" to debate with people who are scholars on the subject, but he is not too busy to debate flakes.

As always I am the bad guy. I will take my lumps in the service of Jesus Christ.

Blessings to you as always,

Rob Wieland