Did anyone hear about how this debate went? I am just curious how it went... I am sure it was an interesting debate just wanted to get some feedback.

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Brandon Addison

Member- Michiana Covenant Presbyterian Church
Granger, IN (http://www.michianacovenant.org/)

Attending and serving the youth @- Christ Church Pasadena Pasadena, CA (www.christchurch.la)

I've heard that it went very well and am, myself, eagerly waiting for the mp3s to come out. You can also log into Dr. White's chat channel and find a few other who where there, though they tend to be rare.

Sam

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--
"For it is a doctrine not of the tongue but of life. It is not apprehended by the understanding and memory alone, as other disciplines are, but it is received only when it posseses the whole soul, and finds a seat and resting place in the inmost affection of the heart."

John Calvin, The Institutes, Book III, Chapter VI, Section 4.

Pompton Plains Reformed Bible Church
Butler, NJ

I would very much enjoy listening to the debate. Do you know where I can obtain it?

Thanks,
Austin

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Austin Brown
Deacon in New Life Alliance Church (C&MA), Logansport, Indiana
Student: Whitefield Theological Seminary, M.Div program

Hi:

You can find ordering info here: http://www.opcli.org/index.php

Grace and Peace,

-CH

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In Essentials Unity, in non-Essentials Liberty, in all things Charity.

Robert Paul Wieland
Springs Reformed Presbyterian Church
Colorado Springs, CO
RPCNA

Thanks! I benefited greatly from Pastor Shishko's lectures on baptism and am looking forward to listening to this debate.

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Davidius
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Currently in the process of transferring membership to an as-yet-undecided church in Chapel Hill
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

http://www.opcli.org/display.php?id=15

You can download the debate for free here.

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Devin Brian
1689er
Attending Trinity Baptist Church in Shreveport, LA.
Vivian, Louisiana, USA

"The fall of man is written in too legible characters not to be understood: Those that deny it, by their denying, prove it." - George Whitefield

At 60MB+ apiece, these files are huge. Well, I'm thinking the sound quality will be good. Downloading these on dial-up would probably take over an hour apiece.

They are also available via streaming audio. I wonder how long they will be available on the site, or if they will eventually post them to Sermon Audio.

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Chris Poe
Mandeville, LA

"There are the foolish fanatics always to be found in such a movement and always discrediting it--the lunatic fringe in all reform movements." Theodore Roosevelt

The sound quality is excellent.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Yes, the sound quality is excellent (their mics cut out from time to time, but never for more than a second). If you don't have time to download and they take it down, then I could probably find a way to send it to you. I could even lessen the quality to make it a bit smaller.

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Devin Brian
1689er
Attending Trinity Baptist Church in Shreveport, LA.
Vivian, Louisiana, USA

"The fall of man is written in too legible characters not to be understood: Those that deny it, by their denying, prove it." - George Whitefield

Thanks for the offer, brother. I downloaded them but haven't listened to them yet.

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Chris Poe
Mandeville, LA

"There are the foolish fanatics always to be found in such a movement and always discrediting it--the lunatic fringe in all reform movements." Theodore Roosevelt

I listened to both parts yesterday. I thought both men presented thier positions very well. I tried as much as possible to listen from an objective postion to both sides. As one who has spent a good bit of the last year (after attending an ARP church for a while) examing the doctrine of infant baptism I really enjoyed it. I can see problem and difficulties in both postions.
However, to me it seems that the infant baptism side has more Biblical difficulties than the believers postion imo.
The Lord has greatly modified my position on this issue in recent time though. It may anger some here but it is a secondary issue with me. I appreciate the spirit that both men had in the debate. We have too much in common doctrinally to let this issue divide us forever. I will still retain my postion by concience and I will RESPECT my Prebyterian brethen and ask only the same from them.
God bless and keep you all.

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1689 Baptist Confession

Psa 55:16 As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
Psa 55:17 Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.
James Farley, Wilderness Road Baptist Assembly.
Husband of Melissa and father of Ann.
www.wildernessroadbaptist.org

I have yet to listen to the debate; I have downloaded it. Tina and I will listen to it this evening; MY guess, if Shisko did not hammer the point of covenant, then he went and fought on credo soil. If he did do this and let White lead the dialogue, he shot himself in the foot. CT and paedobaptism is cleary mapped out in scripture using the whole of Gods scriptures, starting in Genesis and ending in the book of revelation. One cannot find it properly using a dispensational approach, i.e. using the NT to try and define the principle. I assume Shisko did this; I will see tonight.

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Scott Bushey
Husband to Tina, father to Nicole, Danielle and Zoe
Member First Presbyterian Church of Margate PCA

Actually, Pastor Shishko pressed from the beginning for White to prove that the household principle had been rescinded from its initiation in Genesis. He did not press the Covenant hard per se because Dr. White has not been too terribly clear on what his position of the Covenant is. Personally, I don't think Dr. White is "Covenantal" Baptist such as the likes of Jim Renihan, Fred Malone, et al. But don't get me to lyin'.

I was not convinced by Dr. White's approach because he failed to do the one thing that Pastor Shishko asked of him. Prove the clear and evident abrogation of God's command to apply the sign to whole households. I've listened to Pastor Shishko's 23 sermons on the subject of Christian Baptism and I hope he'll consider putting this material into book form.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

To me, abrogation is secondary. God making a eternal covenant in blood, swearing against Himself, is the primary point. It is the epicenter of everything that God is. To deny this fact is akin to building another golden calf and saying that God WILL again destroy the Earth w/ water again, when He has specifically promised not to.

Hebrews 6:13-19 13 For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, "I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." 15 And thus, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise. 16 For men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation is an end of every dispute. 17 In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, 18 in order that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have strong encouragement, we who have fled for refuge in laying hold of the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure Hebrews 6:19 and steadfast and one which enters within the veil,

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Scott Bushey
Husband to Tina, father to Nicole, Danielle and Zoe
Member First Presbyterian Church of Margate PCA

Dr. White did bring up the scripture about Grace dividing the household, father against son, etc. I didn’t hear really hear a response by Pastor Shishko. The examination of the texts - - that Pastor Shishko presented for household baptism - - Dr. White did an excellent job. I believe White did in fact show a pattern of repentance and faith before baptism especially in the early portions of Acts. To require repentance and faith for every text is an unfair demand especially since the pattern had been established early on.

That said, Dr. White [IMO] won by a hair, and Pastor Shishko was able to raise some doubt about credo only baptism. With all due respect I don’t think I can agree with Blueridge, I don’t think this is a secondary issue but a central issue, although I have a growing respect for paedobaptism, I’ll remain credo…for now.

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J. M. - Baptist - Ontario, Canada - Feileadh Mor

Still listening. Here's a funny quote by White:

P.O.F. does not guarantee election. P.O.F. guarantees membership into the visible body solely.

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Scott Bushey
Husband to Tina, father to Nicole, Danielle and Zoe
Member First Presbyterian Church of Margate PCA

That's pretty bad and I'm thinking he'd want to restate that now.

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Chris Poe
Mandeville, LA

"There are the foolish fanatics always to be found in such a movement and always discrediting it--the lunatic fringe in all reform movements." Theodore Roosevelt

I never heard him say that p.o.f. meant they were true believers.

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1689 Baptist Confession

Psa 55:16 As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
Psa 55:17 Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.
James Farley, Wilderness Road Baptist Assembly.
Husband of Melissa and father of Ann.
www.wildernessroadbaptist.org

I didn't hear White say that either [but I could've missed it].

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J. M. - Baptist - Ontario, Canada - Feileadh Mor

It's on part 1.

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Scott Bushey
Husband to Tina, father to Nicole, Danielle and Zoe
Member First Presbyterian Church of Margate PCA

Hay:

Neither Dr. White nor Pastor Shishko made a killing blow. Those who are convinced of their position will not be convinced otherwise (except by the Spirit of God). Those who are unconvinced concerning this matter have an excellent source of information for either side in order to make an informed decision.

As a paedo-baptist I found Dr. White's argumentation to be very strong indeed. I very much admired his graciousness as well as the way he restrained himself from baiting his opponent. With that in mind I have counted at least three presuppositions he makes that are unbiblical in nature.

The first is his statement that "infants are incapable of faith." I do not know any passage in Scripture that says that infants are incapable of faith. There are an abundance of passages in Scripture that state just the opposite. Surely, if God Himself, the Second Person of the Trinity, God of God, Light of Lights could be incarnated into a fetus - an infant - it would not be more difficult for an infant to receive Grace? Is that not so? We also have a Scriptural example of such happening to John the Baptist in Luke 1:41.

Infants are very capable of receiving Grace. In fact, we should expect children of believers to be converted at a very early age even in infancy.

The Second unbiblical precept that Dr. White uses is in reference to the household baptism of Cornelius. When asked why the preponderance of conversions in the book of Acts were performed by the Spirit of God on the heads of households, and then on the households Dr. White replies:

"because of the rarity of that experience in that God's grace has been poured out on entire households have been saved because the majority of early believers didn't have their families." Part 1 around 1:16:20.

This is a logical fallacy called False Precision. This fallacy occurs when an argument treats information as more precise than it really is. This happens when imprecise information contained in the premisse(s) must be taken as precise in order to adequately support the conclusion.

Why is Dr. White involved in this logical fallacy? Because he is making a precise statement, "the rarity of that experience" where no precise information is given in the Scriptures. Pentecost, for example, was the celebration of the Jewish festival of the feast of weeks, Ex. 23:14-17. All males were required to attend. Now, it may be that the majority of these males were heads of households. Then, again, it may not. We are not given precise information. For Dr. White to claim that he does have precise information concerning this event would be akin to new revelation.

The facts are just the opposite: When the Bible does mention specific conversions the preponderance of the evidence points to household conversions. The conversions of individuals (outside of the household) such as the Ethiopian or Paul are the exceptions rather than the rule.

A third point that Dr. White makes, which is more of a matter of exegesis rather than being unbiblical, is his understanding of the conversion of Cornelius and his household as an "apostolic example." Dr. White does not comment on the following verse:

When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life, Acts 11:18.

Cornelius (a Gentile) and his household were treated to the same Covenant of Grace that Abraham and his household were treated. The Gentiles were outside of the Covenant. Consequently, baptism would not be given to adult members of the household unless they repent and believe. If there were infant members of the household we are not told. What is important is that the Jewish believers to whom Peter is relating this incident recognized that Gentile converts and their families are now included in the Covenant.

The example of Cornelius, then, is that we should expect that if the (gentile) head of the household is converted that the rest of the family will be as well. We understand this as a promise in the same fashion that the promise was given to Abraham, and he circumcised his infants eight days old.

The Bible gives us every reason to believe that the children of believers are considered members of the Covenant of Grace, Luke 18:15,16; Acts 2:38; John 3:8; Acts 4:12; 1 Cor. 7:14; Luke 1:41; 2 Samuel 12:22,23.

Grace and Peace,

-CH

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In Essentials Unity, in non-Essentials Liberty, in all things Charity.

Robert Paul Wieland
Springs Reformed Presbyterian Church
Colorado Springs, CO
RPCNA

I remember something akin to the comment but it seems that you misunderstand the context. White has never made a comment that profession is an infallible guide to regeneration/membership in the COG etc. He says that it is all that we have to go on and determine.

CT

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Hermonta Godwin
Christ The King PCA
Raleigh, NC