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Old 02-15-2007, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew P.C. View Post
Now, i believe in the doctrines of grace, and what blessed doctrines they are. But here is something that puzzles me then, how do infants, who do not understand that gospel go to heaven, if they die?

I'm just really puzzled on this because i read what Paul wrote in Romans 10:

"How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?"

Hearing requires understanding. Christ said "he who has ears, let him hear."

I am seriously open to anything that might change my mind(if it is biblical). Don't think I've closed the door, I just need a better understanding of this.
Simply put this would be called, "by ordinary means," but we hold that God is free to work above, and even contrary to the ordinary prescribed means we are to follow. Thus no limit is placed upon God, so He is free to work when and where He wills. How do any of us know we will get to heaven? It is by promise. We believe the promise, and that promise is for us and our children (Acts 2:39, 1 Cor 7:14) So we do not focus upon our measure of faith, but upon the faithfulness of God to keep His promise.
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  #122 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2007, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew P.C. View Post
Now, i believe in the doctrines of grace, and what blessed doctrines they are. But here is something that puzzles me then, how do infants, who do not understand that gospel go to heaven, if they die?
This is my opinion, because I don't think the bible answers this question. We can not say for certain that infants who die will go to heaven (regardless of receiving a water baptism). If they are regenerate, they will be saved. But who knows which are regenerate if they die so young.

I believe that God creates all men with knowledge - from conception God has given men (at minimum) the knowledge of himself and his divine attributes. This is why even infants are in danger of hell. But just as God creates us all with knowledge, he can also give us saving knowledge - that is the knowledge of the Gospel. Even infants can know Jesus is their savior.

I've said all along in my epistemology (Scripturalism), we are not always aware of the things we know. We can not always give an account for our knowledge. While I assert that the only means of accounting for our knowledge is from Scripture, it is only a means of knowing which things we believe that we can call knowledge. (Scripturalism does not give you knowledge, it certifies what beliefs are knowledge.) There will be other things God has given us to know, that we can not account for, but is still knowledge because it is truth given to us by God. From our perspective, we can only count these beliefs as opinions. Many things that we know, are epidemically opinions. But as you can see, these opinions can be very important to our lives.

For the person who has been regenerated in his infancy, he has saving knowledge - faith/belief in Jesus Christ as his savior. He may not become aware of this knowledge for many years yet. And when he does, he can only account for it because he believes the Scriptures and they tell us that Jesus is Lord and Savior and the only one who can be a propitiation to God for our sins. This is spiritual knowledge, and is validated by God's Word.

Often (as many will testify) when a young person realizes they truly believe, it's as if they believed all along. I personally do not remember when I first believed. I can only recall a time when I said to myself, "I do believe". I did not know how long I believed, I just noticed that I believed in Jesus.

And it is my belief that this saving knowledge was given to me when I was very young and it was years before I became aware of this knowledge. I could not give an epistemological accounting when I first received saving faith (that is the knowledge of the gospel truth). That came latter when I began to understand the gospel and realized that I believed what the Scriptures said.

I was regenerated by the Spirit, given saving faith, then later became aware that I believed the gospel. At first I merely became aware that I believed in Jesus as my savior. As I began to understand that the Scriptures were God's revelation, my belief became epistemically justified knowledge. All along I had known, but only later could I justify what I knew epistemically.

This is also why I believe the the mentally retarded and brain damaged can be saved, can have saving faith, can know the gospel truth. They may never be able to articulate it, or understand it because of the physically inflictions they suffer. They go through life as if they had very dark and dirty glasses on - never truly aware or fully cognizant of the knowledge God has given them. Yet it is the Spirit that saves, by given them the knowledge that saves, saving faith. And the power of the Spirit is not limited by our flesh. Our flesh merely limits our ability to comprehend what we (the regenerate) already know - that Jesus is Lord.

As for those who have "ears to hear", these are the regenerate. These are those who God have given saving faith. It could be that they were regenerate before they heard the gospel, or exactly when they heard it. But they could not "hear" it until they were given the "ears" to hear it. The regenerate believe the gospel when they hear it because they already have saving faith, and the hearing of the gospel make them aware and cognizant of the gospel and their belief in it's truth. This is why many believe simply by hearing it. The professions of faith, the realization that Jesus is Lord, is merely a confirmation of being saved by the Spirit by regeneration and reception of saving faith.

But it's worse for the unregenerate. When they hear the gospel, they do not believe it. They may understand it, and they do know that God is God, but they do not have the "ears to hear". They do not believe the gospel because God has not given them saving faith/knowledge. There is nothing to confirm. The gospel falls flat to their ears.

....

Well that went on longer than I wanted, and I don't have time to pare it down like I should. But I hope it was helpful.
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  #123 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2007, 12:40 PM
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But there is an intellectual process. To totally deny any use of the brain is insane.

The brain is not the issue, the mind is. The brain is just the physical interface between our minds (spirits) and the flesh (physical world). You can scramble the brain, but the mind remains as spirit.

The knowledge is given to our spirit when we receive saving faith. When our brain hears the gospel, a connection is made between those words and the spiritual knowledge that is a gift from the Spirit. Saving faith does not depend on the ability of the brain. A properly functioning brain helps us confirm that we have been given saving faith.

No matter the condition of the brain, it is the mind that believes. It is our spirit that has saving faith. Infants and mentally retarded people still have perfectly functioning spirits that can be saved by God's grace.
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  #124 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2007, 06:29 PM
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The brain is not the issue, the mind is. The brain is just the physical interface between our minds (spirits) and the flesh (physical world). You can scramble the brain, but the mind remains as spirit.

The knowledge is given to our spirit when we receive saving faith. When our brain hears the gospel, a connection is made between those words and the spiritual knowledge that is a gift from the Spirit. Saving faith does not depend on the ability of the brain. A properly functioning brain helps us confirm that we have been given saving faith.
This is what i was trying to say. You are correct. I agree with you 100%. Sorry for the unclear "words" i was using. I see that one wrong word makes the word "heretic" loud and clear. It also makes people draw the gun very quickly.
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  #125 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2007, 06:32 PM
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No matter the condition of the brain, it is the mind that believes. It is our spirit that has saving faith. Infants and mentally retarded people still have perfectly functioning spirits that can be saved by God's grace.
I am open to this. But it is very hard for me to understand. Today i was reminded that our salvation is supernatural. Again, it's just hard for me to grasp this concept and i will study more into the doctrines of grace as i get older.
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  #126 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2007, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew P.C. View Post
I am open to this. But it is very hard for me to understand. Today i was reminded that our salvation is supernatural. Again, it's just hard for me to grasp this concept and i will study more into the doctrines of grace as i get older.
Andrew, may the Lord give you much grace as you study and as He delights to reveal more of Himself to you! May you never tire to sit at His feet!

Ephesians 1:3 - 6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
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