Hypotheticals: (For Presbyterians!)

1. Parents have a child. 18 years later the parents convert and are Baptized. The child, though 18, is still under their authority and in their house. Should the child be Baptized?

2. Same facts, except change the child's age to 25. He is unmarried and still under his parents authority, technically.

3. Same facts as #1 except the 18 year-old is a well known fornicator and drunkard.

At what point do we require a profession of faith from the child an thus engage in credo-Baptism and at what point do we apply the ordinance to the child on the merit of him now being a child in a Covenant family and thus practice paedo-Baptism?

I have never myself thought through this before. Though I find the practice of paedo-Baptism consistent with a Covenantal view of Scripture, I can surmise no criterion to draw a bright-line between paedo and credo practice. At risk of being known as ignorant and unlearned, I leave it to you.



Clarification, I meant I am the ignorant and unlearned, not those replying.

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Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2)

Hmmm, good question. I think that the church should do everything they can to have them baptized, even without a profession of faith, however if the child is openly hostile to the request then the answer would be 'no'.

And with that, I have no idea how to back up my answer

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Travis Graham | Member | Christ The King (PCA) | Houston, TX

"The world will bow,
and knees will be broken,
for those who don't know how"
- Woven Hand

I hope you don't mind a couple of quick thoughts from the "ignorant and unlearned."

- I did not present my children for baptism because of my "headship" over them but because of God's promises to them...(not to take away from the importance of headship in covenant).

- In all the scenarious you give, the person should be baptized if he desires baptism (that also includes desiring what baptism is a sign of, union with Christ). He should not be baptized if he rejects it.

- Those that desire baptism should be baptized...period. No confession of faith necessary, they are part of the covenant household and should be given the covenant sign.

I think my last thought hints at what your really wanting to know. At what point do we presbyterians become creedo in these scenarious...Never. Because the child is given baptism, because the adult child is also given baptism if he does not reject it.

Note: I take an exception to scenario two if that child is not in the "household", but on their own.

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Shawn Atkins
Member, Parkhill Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Denver, Colorado

Open my eyes Lord, that I may behold wondrous things out of your law. Psalm 119:18

Nobody likes to deal with what if scenerio's. Pastor Shishko said that he would not baptize children that old,who deny Christ openly.
When dealing with adults I do not believe there is a difference between the two camps. Believe and be baptized is still the rule.

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Anthony D'Arienzo
Sunday School Teacher
Hope Reformed Baptist Church:
Medford, N.Y.

Since the child, in such a case, has reached years of understanding, they should not be baptised except upon profession of faith.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

Clarification, I meant I am the ignorant and unlearned, not those replying.

When is one an adult and when is one a child?

When do years of understanding begin? What if the child is 12, or 8?

Since the "child" in these scenarios is actually legally an adult, and legally responsible for himself, he should not be baptized based on the parents.

However, if the child was 16 and he was legally under the headship of his parents, then yes he should be baptized.

If the 16 yr old is a drunkard or something similar, then of course not. Even a baptized adult drunkard who is unrepentant is to be removed from the church, so there would be no reason to admit a drunkard into fellowship at all.

__________________
Larry Bray
Training for Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/

Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net

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"The best Christian is still a poor Christian" - R.B. Kuiper

Do we go by the law of our country then as to who is an adult?

What about 6 year olds who are clearly rebellious?

( I think).

But, that brings up another subject perhaps , but what is everyone's opinion of this "years of understanding"? I've heard it referred to as "the age of accountibility" at times ... is such a concept biblical?

__________________
Sterling Harmon
Coventry, CT
PCA
Deacon
________________

"Whatever is laudable in our works proceeds from the grace of God."
-- John Calvin, Institutes III:xv.3.

"Our Lord God must be a good man, to be fond of worthless fellows. I cannot like them, and yet I, myself, am one."
-- Martin Luther, Table Talk

Yes, we would go by the laws of the country. After all, the governing authorities are God-ordained.

When we speak of an individual being under their parents authority we must take into consideration if legally they are really under that authority or not. Eighteen year olds are not legally under the authority of their parents, and we must obey all laws that don't directly go against the Scriptures.

The baptism of a child has to do with the parents faith in God's promise to them and their children, the 6 year old would be baptized based on that, not based on his rebelliousness per say. After all, i've been rebellious since my baptism, but that doesn't make it an invalid baptism (and i was baptized as an adult).

This is a complex question, though it is worth keeping in mind that it is one the people in the OT would also have had to grapple with when a pagan - who professed faith in the God of Israel - wished to join the church. It would appear from our Lord's example in Luke 2 that children did not partake of the passover until 12 (or is it 13?), so perhaps that gives us some indication.

All children are rebellious, they have Adam's sin imputed to them, and so foolishness is bound up in their hearts.

The tradition was to go up and take part in the fastings, to learn a trade, etc. at 12; then at 13 they were considered an adult.

Luke 2 says that Jesus was 12, but it doesn't say that it was the first time they went to participate in Passover. Besides, that's a question more for the Lord's Supper than Baptism.

True!

Does the text not indicate though that that was the first time Christ went with his parents? If there has to be a 'cut off' point for children receiving baptism why not make it here?

NO. I think they went every year. It was their custom to go every year. But it was when He was twelve, that He stayed behind in the temple and taught the teachers.

Luke 2:41-42 says:
"Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast."

And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast. (Luk 2:42)

It doesn't appear to me to state that it was His first time at passover. It seems to simply indicate that at this particular trip He was 12. Most likely to contrast His age and understanding with that of the doctors He was conversing with.

In 2:40 we are told of His wisdom, in 2:42 we are told of His young age, in 2:47 we are told that the doctors were were astonished at His understanding.

Even if it was His first time, it has nothing to do with Baptism as Christ would have been circumcised as a baby.

Legally a person is considered an adult in most states at either 18, or 21.
In other cultures it must vary. Children can believe the gospel before adulthood if God saves them. Most confessional baptists are not in a rush to baptize very young children. Young children say they believe many things, that as they grow older they change their mind on.
Some baptist parents are over-eager to baptize young children so they{ the parents can comfort themselves} that in their mind the child is now on His or her way to heaven. It is probably best to wait until the Holy Spirit saves the child first however.
We went into a fundamental baptist church once when my second son was 5yrs old. One of the deacons was talking to him and my son said he believed in Jesus. The deacon wanted to baptize him right away. We explained that we would prefer to wait until we had reason to believe that the Spirit had given him new life.
Laws are written to protect children in our society. At what age can someone drive? Drink? Give Consent for medical treatment? Get married? Sign a legal document?
Some day they will do all these things , but it is probably not good to allow them to while they are young and lack understanding.
Why push to tell your child -you are saved- you are a christian- you are a disciple- you can live a life pleasing to God just as you are- live up to your baptism- improve your baptism.... When more than likely they have not been regenerated yet! So you expect them to be, act, or live as a christian without the indwelling Spirit? In the stength of their flesh they will do no more than give an outward conformity to an external standard, when God will give a new heart. A false and fleshly "church member" is a hypocrite at best and a dried out dead formilist at their worst.
Cults indoctrinate their children, it is religion without the Spirit. Nobody here wants that for their children.
Baptists do not tell their children that much different than a presbyterian tells their children hopefully. Jesus saves sinners, Jesus saves His people.Jesus saves all who believe. All died in Adam.All In Christ live.
You {the child} live in a home with believing parents. If God is merciful to you , you also will believe and be saved as your parents were saved by God.
We { your parents} cannot save you. You must deal with God personally. We can only tell you the truth as it is In Christ. The promise of life is only to those who believe by a God given faith.
Anyone who remains seperated from God and dies without Christ will die in their sins.