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06-29-2008, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by armourbearer  Quote:
Originally Posted by PuritanCovenanter I actually know a child named Greg Stillinger who could read words by phonics at age 2. He is a very exceptional child. I think these matters should be left to the individuals parents to discern before the Lord and their Elders / Pastors. | So then it appears that educational levels are to some extent included in the credobaptist's pre-requisite to a credible profession of faith and therefore to baptism. Then I reiterate my earlier question, What Scriptural support is there for such pre-requisites? And must an adult be able to read in order to give a credible profession of faith? |
You are usually more gracious than you have been in this thread Rev. Winzer. I don't believe that Bill Brown is a Baptist in Crisis. And I think your accusation here is a little strawy.
When do you allow children to partake of the Lord's Table? Are you barring infants from communion with God at an early age because of discernment? Repentance and faith is a notable prerequisite. Confession is unto salvation the word of God says. Discernment of the Lords work and what an individual is doing is a biggy. Examining ones self is a big one.
You wouldn't allow just anyone to partake of the Lord's table. And by the way, Covenant Children are defined in the New Covenant. They are Children of Christ by a new birth. He is the New Covenant Head and seed as promised to Abraham.
I hope my answer was gracious.
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06-29-2008, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by PuritanCovenanter You are usually more gracious than you have been in this thread Rev. Winzer. I don't believe that Bill Brown is a Baptist in Crisis. And I think your accusation here is a little strawy. | Friend, it was a play on words given his previous username; nothing malicious in it; Bill seems to have understood. Quote:
Originally Posted by PuritanCovenanter When do you allow children to partake of the Lord's Table? Are you barring infants from communion with God at an early age because of discernment? Repentance and faith is a notable prerequisite. Confession is unto salvation the word of God says. Discernment of the Lords work and what an individual is doing is a biggy. Examining ones self is a big one.
You wouldn't allow just anyone to partake of the Lord's table. And by the way, Covenant Children are defined in the New Covenant. They are Children of Christ by a new birth. He is the New Covenant Head and seed as promised to Abraham. | The Lord Jesus Christ as the head of the church has instituted two sacraments. One which is receptive (be baptised), the other which is active (eat and drink). The first requires the capability to receive grace, whilst the other requires the exercise of grace. Given this clearcut distinction as taught in holy Scripture, the antipaedobaptist insistence on making one set of requirements to govern both sacraments is obviously unbiblical.
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06-29-2008, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by armourbearer Quote:
Originally Posted by North Jersey Baptist I don't care whether the child was baptized or not. | Then you're still a Baptist in crisis, Bill; I would rather hear from someone who insists on antipaedobaptistic principles in order to see how those principles work out in practice. | Matthew, what is it in Bill's post that you find to be inconsistent with antipaedobaptistic principles? Here it is in its entirety: Quote: |
Matthew, it is not my place to say when a child has reached the ability to understand the gospel. This much I do know, it is the gospel that saves. The gospel is taught, Christian principles modeled and the child exposed to the blessings of the church. I don't care whether the child was baptized or not. Salvation is not secured differently for either of them. When the time comes that they are able to understand the gospel and profess faith in Christ - praise God!
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06-29-2008, 09:59 PM
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He doesn't care whether the child is baptised or not. An antipaedobaptist does care. Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilgrim Quote:
Originally Posted by armourbearer Quote:
Originally Posted by North Jersey Baptist I don't care whether the child was baptized or not. | Then you're still a Baptist in crisis, Bill; I would rather hear from someone who insists on antipaedobaptistic principles in order to see how those principles work out in practice. | Matthew, what is it in Bill's post that you find to be inconsistent with antipaedobaptistic principles? Here it is in its entirety: Quote: |
Matthew, it is not my place to say when a child has reached the ability to understand the gospel. This much I do know, it is the gospel that saves. The gospel is taught, Christian principles modeled and the child exposed to the blessings of the church. I don't care whether the child was baptized or not. Salvation is not secured differently for either of them. When the time comes that they are able to understand the gospel and profess faith in Christ - praise God!
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06-29-2008, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by armourbearer Quote:
Originally Posted by PuritanCovenanter You are usually more gracious than you have been in this thread Rev. Winzer. I don't believe that Bill Brown is a Baptist in Crisis. And I think your accusation here is a little strawy. | Friend, it was a play on words given his previous username; nothing malicious in it; Bill seems to have understood. Quote:
Originally Posted by PuritanCovenanter When do you allow children to partake of the Lord's Table? Are you barring infants from communion with God at an early age because of discernment? Repentance and faith is a notable prerequisite. Confession is unto salvation the word of God says. Discernment of the Lords work and what an individual is doing is a biggy. Examining ones self is a big one.
You wouldn't allow just anyone to partake of the Lord's table. And by the way, Covenant Children are defined in the New Covenant. They are Children of Christ by a new birth. He is the New Covenant Head and seed as promised to Abraham. | The Lord Jesus Christ as the head of the church has instituted two sacraments. One which is receptive (be baptised), the other which is active (eat and drink). The first requires the capability to receive grace, whilst the other requires the exercise of grace. Given this clearcut distinction as taught in holy Scripture, the antipaedobaptist insistence on making one set of requirements to govern both sacraments is obviously unbiblical. | If what you say is true than you should be out baptizing all humans everywhere. Do they all not have the capability to receive grace? I don't agree with you and I believe History and the scriptures are on the side of the confessional baptists.
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06-29-2008, 10:07 PM
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(just a note that I understood the statement about not caring to be with reference to the statement following, that it doesn't make any difference with regard to how a child receives grace, and not a statement of preference? Does that make a difference --I think any reformed antipaedobaptist would hold the same view of grace as consistent with why he is an anti-paedobaptist?)
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06-29-2008, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by armourbearer He doesn't care whether the child is baptised or not. An antipaedobaptist does care. Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilgrim Quote:
Originally Posted by armourbearer
Then you're still a Baptist in crisis, Bill; I would rather hear from someone who insists on antipaedobaptistic principles in order to see how those principles work out in practice.
| Matthew, what is it in Bill's post that you find to be inconsistent with antipaedobaptistic principles? Here it is in its entirety: Quote: |
Matthew, it is not my place to say when a child has reached the ability to understand the gospel. This much I do know, it is the gospel that saves. The gospel is taught, Christian principles modeled and the child exposed to the blessings of the church. I don't care whether the child was baptized or not. Salvation is not secured differently for either of them. When the time comes that they are able to understand the gospel and profess faith in Christ - praise God!
| | | May I clarify my statement? That comment was made in order to reinforce the matter of regeneration. I believe baptism is important, but it does not save. Of course, I will reject infant baptism but I am not saying that baptism is unimportant, just irrelevant in regards to regeneration. I used a strong negative in order to make my point. I thought it was clear but apparently not.
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06-29-2008, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by a mere housewife (just a note that I understood the statement about not caring to be with reference to the statement following, that it doesn't make any difference with regard to how a child receives grace, and not a statement of preference? Does that make a difference --I think any reformed antipaedobaptist would hold the same view of grace as consistent with why he is an anti-paedobaptist?) | Heidi, can you write all my future posts?  You understood me.
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06-29-2008, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by North Jersey Baptist May I clarify my statement? That comment was made in order to reinforce the matter of regeneration. I believe baptism is important, but it does not save. Of course, I will reject infant baptism but I am not saying that baptism is unimportant, just irrelevant in regards to regeneration. I used a strong negative in order to make my point. I thought it was clear but apparently not. | While clarifying, may I note that my statement was meant to be half a play on words and half serious. I know Bill takes his Baptist principles seriously. It is the disjunction of baptism with salvation that I would consider as not consistently antipaedobaptist. But anyway, given that it was only meant to be half serious, please take it at least with half a grain of salt.
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06-29-2008, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by PuritanCovenanter If what you say is true than you should be out baptizing all humans everywhere. Do they all not have the capability to receive grace? I don't agree with you and I believe History and the scriptures are on the side of the confessional baptists. | Randy, I think especially in light of a request for more grace you might have exercised some in the above, instead of launching out in your own fit of hyperbole. You know darn good and well what the paedobaptist position is on who are appropriately baptized - and that "all humans everywhere" doesn't fit the bill. That wasn't a useful point, nor was it particularly gracious.
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06-29-2008, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by PuritanCovenanter If what you say is true than you should be out baptizing all humans everywhere. Do they all not have the capability to receive grace? I don't agree with you and I believe History and the scriptures are on the side of the confessional baptists. | I never doubted that was your conviction. And no doubt it is that conviction which leads you to make this reduction ad absurdum. But the fact is, it doesn't apply in this case because baptism is received on the basis of faith. In the case of the convert, his own faith; and in the case of his children, the convert undertakes to teach this faith to them. But with respect to the Lord's supper, there is an actual exercise of faith upon which the efficacy of the sacrament depends.
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06-29-2008, 10:28 PM
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06-29-2008, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by joshua | Figures. There are the paedos just picking at us again. |
06-29-2008, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by North Jersey Baptist Figures. There are the paedos just picking at us again. | Are you contending with Bruce for rabbit honours? 
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06-29-2008, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by armourbearer Quote:
Originally Posted by North Jersey Baptist Figures. There are the paedos just picking at us again. | Are you contending with Bruce for rabbit honours? | Not at t'all. I wouldn't contend with Bruce for a single hare on his head.
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06-29-2008, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by North Jersey Baptist Not at t'all. I wouldn't contend with Bruce for a single hare on his head. | Good one!
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06-29-2008, 11:29 PM
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