In this thread, we asked this (later on in the thread), according to the Credo-only Baptists:
What constitutes a "credible confession/profession of faith," in order to baptize an individual?
I'd like to ask again, because there are some baptists who think it wise and permissible to withhold baptism from a child who has nonetheless professed faith. What I would like to know is:
1. What is the criteria of a credible confession/profession?
2. Did the Apostles use this profession?
3. If so, did they ever have a waiting period for these folks?
Now, these things were discussed in the aforementioned thread, but most of the answers that came from the Baptists who thought it OK to wait were merely practical justifications, as opposed to scriptural mandates. So, for those who hold to this waiting period thing, I'd like to "hear" ya on the matter, and would be much appreciative.
For those who don't believe in the waiting period, of what does the process of ascertaining a credible profession consist?
In this thread, we asked this (later on in the thread), according to the Credo-only Baptists:
I hate that thread, Josh. It's the one time I went on the little "It's my time to go here at the Puritan Board" rant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua
Now, these things were discussed in the aforementioned thread, but most of the answers that came from the Baptists who thought it OK to wait were merely practical justifications, as opposed to scriptural mandates. So, for those who hold to this waiting period thing, I'd like to "hear" ya on the matter, and would be much appreciative.
I don't believe there are scriptural mandates for a "waiting" period. This point almost caused me to leap to the paedo side because of the inconsistency of the credo's concerning this matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua
For those who don't believe in the waiting period, of what does the process of ascertaining a credible profession consist?
That's a good question that I think a paedo understanding of Scripture doesn't have to deal with (when it comes to baptism) and I don't think it's possible to really be able to answer that from a credo perspective.
So, my reply to both your questions would seem to make me more paedo than credo. So, maybe I should have stayed out of this discussion.
__________________
Ryan Barnhart - Pastor of OGBC
Husband to a beautiful wife, Father to two beautiful girls "But by the grace of God I am what I am." I Corinthians 15:10
"I confess to you, that if I can but live and die serving the Lord Jesus, it will make no difference to me whether I am eaten by Cannibals or by worms. And in the Great Day my Resurrection body will rise as fair as yours in the likeness of our risen Redeemer." - John Paton
John 9:35-38 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36 He answered, "Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" 37 Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." 38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him.
The scripture does not teach a waiting period in order to be baptized. The scripture does teach the principle of "believe and be baptized." Baptists consider that a solemn command and therefore practice believers baptism. But what does it mean to actually believe? Does statement of belief equate to a credible profession? Consider the four year old child who announces to Mommy and Daddy after a bible lesson, "I believe in Jesus." Does it automatically follow that her statement is a confession of true saving faith? Most of us can claim anecdotal evidence to support a "yes" or a "no" to that question. But Josh's OP question is not asking for such experiential accounts. Does the scripture speak of such a thing as a credible profession? If it does, what is required on behalf of Baptists ministers in order to administer baptism?
In the passage that headlines this post, I have taken a portion of John 9, and the story of the blind man that Jesus healed. Although blind, he was a Jew who was in covenant with God. We know this because he was eventually thrown out of the synagogue. This man had a real life encounter with Jesus (vs. 6-7). He was healed of his blindness (vs. 7). He had tasted of the good things of God, even if he had not yet believed. Likewise, the child of a Baptist family tastes of the good things of God, by being exposed to the Christian practice of his/her family and interaction with the local church. As the narrative continues, the formerly blind man is brought before the Jews, and asked to give account for his healing. The words of this man are startling.
This man seems to give reference that he is already a disciple in vs. 27. But it is his cognitive understanding of the work of Jesus in his life that gives power to his statement in verse 38:
How does this play out in the Baptist schema? When a individual (child or adult) makes a profession of faith in Jesus Christ, it is incumbent on the ordained minister(s) of the gospel to ascertain whether the individual understands the gospel. Do they understand it cognitively and also spiritually. I will provide one anecdotal story that hits home with me.
My daughter was five years old and started her early schooling at a Christian school. In kindergarten the school made an effort to share the gospel with all the new students. Bethany came home and told her mother that she prayed to received Jesus in the classroom. My wife was excited but I was a bit more muted in my joy. I wasn't in the classroom and had no idea what she had been told. I was far from being a Calvinist and still steeped in dispensationalism at this time. We contacted the pastor and asked if she could be baptized. An appointment was scheduled with the assistant pastor who asked her a series of simple questions to explore whether she could adequately articulate her faith. She couldn't. It wasn't a matter of being nervous. She simply did not understand the gospel. The pastor declined to baptize her based on the fact that she did not display and adequate understanding of the Christian faith. From that point on I was quite satisfied to have my daughter enjoy the blessings of being exposed to the gospel being lived in our home and in our church. Seven years later she was able to give a credible answer to the faith we were confident she possessed. She was then immediately baptized.
Was my daughters experience a waiting period? No. If she had made a credible profession and then we decided to wait, "just to make sure" then it would have been a waiting period. Once I was convinced she understood the gospel and had professed it, then she went under the waters of baptism.
Josh, when you ask about the Apostles, don't forget that they possessed perfect knowledge. We don't. When Cornelius believed in Acts 10, and submitted to baptism, it was under the apostolic supervision of Peter. The most we can do is make sure a individual understands the gospel. If they later prove their profession was false, that is a totally separate matter that is not connected to their baptism.
__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland
The reason I ask this question is because, it seems, that the Apostles didn't go through a painstakingly laborious process in order to ascertain if one's profession of faith was "real" or not. Instead, the folks confessed faith, proclaimed repentance, and folks were baptized ... all within a small time frame. Consider the 3,000 baptized in one day (besides the mode/water arguments), it seems it would be quite difficult to interview/question these 3,000 as to the legitimacy of their confession. Furthermore, it seems that the Apostles, upon finding out they had (past tense) baptized an unregenerate, didn't lose sleep over it. However, I know that with many to whom I am close, they're very meticulous and careful about examining someone who has professed faith, so as to not baptize an unregenerate person. I don't see that kind of doubt, reluctance, or whatever you want to call it, called for by the Scriptures.
This, of course, is why I'm asking. Don't get me wrong, -I didn't put in the non-Debate forums, because I welcome the Paedos to interact as well- I have my own thoughts on the matter, but I'm not claiming perfection in my thoughts.
In this thread, we asked this (later on in the thread), according to the Credo-only Baptists:
I hate that thread, Josh. It's the one time I went on the little "It's my time to go here at the Puritan Board" rant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua
Now, these things were discussed in the aforementioned thread, but most of the answers that came from the Baptists who thought it OK to wait were merely practical justifications, as opposed to scriptural mandates. So, for those who hold to this waiting period thing, I'd like to "hear" ya on the matter, and would be much appreciative.
I don't believe there are scriptural mandates for a "waiting" period. This point almost caused me to leap to the paedo side because of the inconsistency of the credo's concerning this matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua
For those who don't believe in the waiting period, of what does the process of ascertaining a credible profession consist?
That's a good question that I think a paedo understanding of Scripture doesn't have to deal with (when it comes to baptism) and I don't think it's possible to really be able to answer that from a credo perspective.
They have the same issue when ascertaining credible professions of covenant children as well unless an arbitrary age is set. Many oppose young children coming to the table. Others favor "age appropriate" profession.
The reason I ask this question is because, it seems, that the Apostles didn't go through a painstakingly laborious process in order to ascertain if one's profession of faith was "real" or not. Instead, the folks confessed faith, proclaimed repentance, and folks were baptized ... all within a small time frame. Consider the 3,000 baptized in one day (besides the mode/water arguments), it seems it would be quite difficult to interview/question these 3,000 as to the legitimacy of their confession. Furthermore, it seems that the Apostles, upon finding out they had (past tense) baptized an unregenerate, didn't lose sleep over it. However, I know that with many to whom I am close, they're very meticulous and careful about examining someone who has professed faith, so as to not baptize an unregenerate person. I don't see that kind of doubt, reluctance, or whatever you want to call it, called for by the Scriptures.
This, of course, is why I'm asking. Don't get me wrong, -I didn't put in the non-Debate forums, because I welcome the Paedos to interact as well- I have my own thoughts on the matter, but I'm not claiming perfection in my thoughts.
Josh, see my comment about the Apostles in my previous post.
__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland
Josh, when you ask about the Apostles, don't forget that they possessed perfect knowledge.
Maybe when they wrote the Scriptures, but not for all times. Plus, if they possessed perfect knowledge, why, O, why did they Baptize Simon the sorcerer?
Josh, when you ask about the Apostles, don't forget that they possessed perfect knowledge.
Maybe when they wrote the Scriptures, but not for all times. Plus, if they possessed perfect knowledge, why, O, why did they Baptize Simon the sorcerer?
I don't know about Simon. Was he truly saved? The scripture says he believed. Was that a false belief? Do we know for sure? I certainly don't. I wish I had a water proof answer for everything.
I ask myself the same about Judas being baptized, but I have less of a problem with that. Judas played a roll. He was the son of perdition and was predestined to get close to Jesus. How much closer could he get than reclining at the table with Him or being baptized?
__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland
Josh, when you ask about the Apostles, don't forget that they possessed perfect knowledge.
Maybe when they wrote the Scriptures, but not for all times. Plus, if they possessed perfect knowledge, why, O, why did they Baptize Simon the sorcerer?
I don't know about Simon. Was he truly saved? The scripture says he believed. Was that a false belief? Do we know for sure? I certainly don't. I wish I had a water proof answer for everything.
I think it's rather clear that he wasn't a believer (at least, not at that point in time).
Acts 8:21-23
21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
1. His heart wasn't right. 2. He was told to repent. 3. He was in the "bond" of inquity. But besides that, I think Luke is showing the intent of his profession in retrospect.
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I did not put this in the Credo-Answers forum, because I asked hoping for a good back and forth. Both Paedobaptists and Credo-only baptists are welcome to contribute.
If 11 disciples can immerse 3000 in one day, certainly interview every one of them and get a credible profession is each case in not a problem, I would imagine.
3000/11 = 273, 24*60/273=5.3 min, so each potential candidate get 5.3 min, including waiting period for the disciple to see if their profession is credible+immersion time, certainly doable!
__________________
Polo
Layman, Chinese Evangelical Church/Independent
San Diego
For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. (Romans 11:36)
If you allow a two year old to be baptised on profession of faith in Christ, is he then admitted to the table?
If a two year old can produce a clear profession of faith then he can examine himself imho, but I've not yet met a two year old who can (I am not saying I deny that such a two year old exists!)
Back to the thread question, I don't hold to a waiting period. The only waiting period I could conceive of would be if someone's profession was obviously faulty or contradicted by their lifestyle in which case further time would be needed to challenge these contradictions. These days, though, it is rare that someone just pops up, professes Christ instantly, and wants baptism. Usually we know the person, they may come to church for some time, and we can most often see for ourselves that God has changed them perhaps even before they confess it.
In my case, I had been 'seeking' for a year or so, and I had been to see the Pastor a few times about it. So, when in May 1992 I made a final and clear profession along the lines of 'I know for sure that I am born again, I trust only in Christ's work on Calvary's cross, etc' I was baptised within a month, at the next available baptism date.
I still have the white socks I was required to wear that evening. Only they are not so white any more!
Back to the second part of the question - what is a credible profession? One that is not openly contradicted by obvious sin, one that is unreserved, and one that shows understanding of the basis of your salvation. A profession of faith is just that - of faith IN Christ Jesus and what He has done.
Josh, when you ask about the Apostles, don't forget that they possessed perfect knowledge.
Maybe when they wrote the Scriptures, but not for all times. Plus, if they possessed perfect knowledge, why, O, why did they Baptize Simon the sorcerer?
I don't know about Simon. Was he truly saved? The scripture says he believed. Was that a false belief? Do we know for sure? I certainly don't. I wish I had a water proof answer for everything.
I ask myself the same about Judas being baptized, but I have less of a problem with that. Judas played a roll. He was the son of perdition and was predestined to get close to Jesus. How much closer could he get than reclining at the table with Him or being baptized?
He may have had a role to play, but he was also a reprobate.
__________________
Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA http://semperubi.rtrc.net
"Many men, after a long conversion, see more of the workings of sin in their hearts than ever they did before or at their first conversion. Now, such men have not an increase of sin, but an increase of illumination and light" (Christopher Love)
Maybe when they wrote the Scriptures, but not for all times. Plus, if they possessed perfect knowledge, why, O, why did they Baptize Simon the sorcerer?
(Romans 11:36)
