Presence of Christ in Baptism

Coram Deo · #1 (**permalink**) 08-30-2007, 12:25 PM

Ok, Let's put aside for the moment the Credo vs. Paedo debate.....

Since coming to the position that Christ is truly present in the Lord's Supper by way of a conduit of the Holy Ghost in which we spiritually partake of the Body and Blood of our Lord I have been thinking and wondering more about the Sacrament of Baptism.

So I put forth these questions -

Is Christ truly present in the Sacrament of Baptism like that of the Eucharist?

How does Christ's presence in the sacrament impart grace to us through Baptism?

Any thoughts?

AV1611 · #2 (**permalink**) 08-30-2007, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunaer

Ok, Let's put aside for the moment the Credo vs. Paedo debate.....

Since coming to the position that Christ is truly present in the Lord's Supper by way of a conduit of the Holy Ghost in which we spiritually partake of the Body and Blood of our Lord I have been thinking and wondering more about the Sacrament of Baptism.

So I put forth these questions -

Is Christ truly present in the Sacrament of Baptism like that of the Eucharist?

How does Christ's presence in the sacrament impart grace to us through Baptism?

Any thoughts?

*subscribing*

KMK · #3 (**permalink**) 08-30-2007, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunaer

Ok, Let's put aside for the moment the Credo vs. Paedo debate.....

This is not possible. You temporarily forgot which board you are on...

Scott · #4 (**permalink**) 08-30-2007, 02:38 PM

I will give you Westminster's understanding, which is what I believe. The short answer is that Christ communicates the benefits of his redemption (by the work of the Holy Spirit applying them), in Word, prayer, and both sacraments, including baptism.

Shorter catechism

Quote:

Q88: What are the outward means whereby Christ communicateth to us the benefits of redemption?
A88: The outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicateth to us the benefits of redemption, are his ordinances, especially the Word, sacraments, and prayer;[1] all which are made effectual to the elect for salvation.

1. Acts 2:41-42
. . .
Q91: How do the sacraments become effectual means of salvation?
A91: The sacraments become effectual means of salvation, not from any virtue in them, or in him that doth administer them;[1] but only by the blessing of Christ, and the working of his Spirit in them that by faith receive them.[2]

1. I Cor. 3:7
2. I Peter 3:21

LC:

Quote:

Q163: What are the parts of a sacrament?
A163: The parts of a sacrament are two; the one an outward and sensible sign, used according to Christ's own appointment; the other an inward and spiritual grace thereby signified.[1]

1. Matt. 3:11; I Peter 3:27; Rom. 2:28-29

WCF 28.6:

Quote:

6. The efficacy of baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered;a yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited and conferred by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongeth unto, according to the counsel of God's own will, in his appointed time.b

a. John 3:5, 8. • b. Acts 2:38, 41; Gal 3:27; Eph 5:25-26; Titus 3:5.

So, the idea is that the sacraments confer the grace and benefits of Christ's mediatorial work. They do so by the work of the Holy Spirit.

North Jersey Baptist · #5 (**permalink**) 08-30-2007, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMK

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunaer

Ok, Let's put aside for the moment the Credo vs. Paedo debate.....

This is not possible. You temporarily forgot which board you are on...

North Jersey Baptist · #6 (**permalink**) 08-30-2007, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Romans 6:4 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Michael, I am sure Matthew or Bruce will correct me if I am in error on any of this. I do not view baptism as a visible means of grace in the same sense as the Lord's Supper. Certainly salvation is by grace alone (through faith alone), and in that sense baptism is a means of grace. But baptism is a sign, something both paedos and credos would agree with even though we differ on the administration. In the quoted passage Paul is emphasizing the symbolism of baptism. We haven't literally been buried with Christ, but the old man (with the old sin nature) has died with Christ. Likewise, as Christ was raised from the dead so we have been raised as new creatures (2 Cor. 5:17). What means of grace can be imparted via baptism that hasn't already taken place by spiritual baptism, the washing of regeneration?

Scott · #7 (**permalink**) 08-30-2007, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaptistInCrisis

What means of grace can be imparted via baptism that hasn't already taken place by spiritual baptism, the washing of regeneration?

One thing would be that the Holy Spirit uses baptism to increase and strengthen faith.

Coram Deo · #8 (**permalink**) 08-30-2007, 04:11 PM

I was thinking that and also to look to your baptism...

There does seem to be some imparting grace, through the conduit of the Holy Ghost....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaptistInCrisis

What means of grace can be imparted via baptism that hasn't already taken place by spiritual baptism, the washing of regeneration?

One thing would be that the Holy Spirit uses baptism to increase and strengthen faith.

North Jersey Baptist · #9 (**permalink**) 08-30-2007, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaptistInCrisis

What means of grace can be imparted via baptism that hasn't already taken place by spiritual baptism, the washing of regeneration?

One thing would be that the Holy Spirit uses baptism to increase and strengthen faith.

Scott - I can see that. But can we then say that the Holy Spirit strengthens our faith through various other watershed moments in our Christian life? In that sense we open the door to what would be constituted a visible means of grace. I understand that word and sacrament are understood by the Reformed to be a means of grace. From the credo perspective baptism almost always follows regeneration/conversion. I suppose the significance of baptism as a means of grace is lost in the greater work of regeneration/conversion.

Scott · #10 (**permalink**) 08-30-2007, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaptistInCrisis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaptistInCrisis

What means of grace can be imparted via baptism that hasn't already taken place by spiritual baptism, the washing of regeneration?

One thing would be that the Holy Spirit uses baptism to increase and strengthen faith.

Scott - I can see that. But can we then say that the Holy Spirit strengthens our faith through various other watershed moments in our Christian life? In that sense we open the door to what would be constituted a visible means of grace. I understand that word and sacrament are understood by the Reformed to be a means of grace. From the credo perspective baptism almost always follows regeneration/conversion. I suppose the significance of baptism as a means of grace is lost in the greater work of regeneration/conversion.

Yeah, I would not limit the work of the Holy Spirit to the ordinary means of grace. He indwells us and edifies us at watershed moments and other times. Still, there is a special impartation of grace that occurs with the reading/preaching of the Word, prayer, and sacraments, and we are encouraged to make great use of these.

Also, I think the paedo and credo understanding (at least reformed credos) would be the same with respect to adult converts. There is the great conversion to faith through the Word and then there is a strenghening and increasing the faith through baptism. There is more going on there than a memorial. As I recall, the Baptist London Confession recognizes this alongside the WCF.

KMK · #11 (**permalink**) 08-30-2007, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaptistInCrisis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott

One thing would be that the Holy Spirit uses baptism to increase and strengthen faith.

Scott - I can see that. But can we then say that the Holy Spirit strengthens our faith through various other watershed moments in our Christian life? In that sense we open the door to what would be constituted a visible means of grace. I understand that word and sacrament are understood by the Reformed to be a means of grace. From the credo perspective baptism almost always follows regeneration/conversion. I suppose the significance of baptism as a means of grace is lost in the greater work of regeneration/conversion.

Yeah, I would not limit the work of the Holy Spirit to the ordinary means of grace. He indwells us and edifies us at watershed moments and other times. Still, there is a special impartation of grace that occurs with the reading/preaching of the Word, prayer, and sacraments, and we are encouraged to make great use of these.

Also, I think the paedo and credo understanding (at least reformed credos) would be the same with respect to adult converts. There is the great conversion to faith through the Word and then there is a strenghening and increasing the faith through baptism. There is more going on there than a memorial. As I recall, the Baptist London Confession recognizes this alongside the WCF.

LBC 1689:

Quote:

Chapter 14: Of Saving Faith

1. The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word; by which also, and by the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God, it is increased and strengthened.

Scott · #12 (**permalink**) 08-30-2007, 06:05 PM

I notice that the chapter on baptism is paired down, though. It omits any reference to baptism being efficacious or conferring grace. Looks like Ch. 14 would cover it, though. I wonder why they deleted the references in chapter 29. It does noty deny it either - perhaps giving some latitude for Zwinglians.

KMK · #13 (**permalink**) 08-30-2007, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott

I notice that the chapter on baptism is paired down, though. It omits any reference to baptism being efficacious or conferring grace. Looks like Ch. 14 would cover it, though. I wonder why they deleted the references in chapter 29. It does noty deny it either - perhaps giving some latitude for Zwinglians.

And they might have wanted to distance themselves from the RCC paedo view as much as possible.

JM · #14 (**permalink**) 08-30-2007, 06:39 PM

I don't know if this will help or not:

Question 98: How do Baptism and the Lord's Supper become effective means of salvation?

Answer: Baptism and the Lord's Supper become effective means of salvation, not from any virtue in them or in him that administers them, but only by the blessing of Christ, and the working of his Spirit in those who by faith receive them.

Scripture: 1 Peter 3:21; 1 Corinthians 3:6, 7; 12:13.

Question 99: How do Baptism and the Lord's Supper differ from the other ordinances of God?

Answer: Baptism and the Lord's Supper differ from the other ordinances of God in that they were specially instituted by Christ to represent and apply to believers the benefits of the new covenant by visible and outward signs.

Scripture: Acts 22:16; Matthew 26:26-28; 28:19; Romans 6:4.

Question 100: What is Baptism?

Answer: Baptism is a holy ordinance, in which immersion in the water in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, signifies our being joined to Christ and our sharing the benefits of the covenant of grace, and our engagement to be the Lord's.

Scripture: Matthew 28:19; Romans 6:3-5; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:27.

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