I've begun to read through Mark in Greek, and in verse 9 I came across the preposition εἰς used to describe Jesus' baptism in the Jordan. Does this support immersion? I would have expected ἐν.

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Davidius
Husband of Emily
Member of All Saints Anglican Church - Chapel Hill (AMiA / Anglican Church of North America)
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German and Classics

David,

The different prepositions used of this particular baptism don't indicate immersion, as one of the other Synoptics (can't recall which) uses <apo> rather than <ek> to describe Jesus coming "away from" (not "out of") the water. Also, John is described as having gone "into" <eis> the water with Jesus, which can't indicate immersion, but location.

I taught a sunday school on this subject back in 2004, and can send you the notes if you like. Dr. Dale's books were of particular assistance in that study:

Classic Baptism : An Inquiry into the Meaning of the Word Baptizo As Determined by the Usage of Classical Greek Writers

I'm sure you'd enjoy the read.

Cheers,

Adam

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Adam B., Wine Country, California, PCA

"I fear not to hold with Junius, de Politia Mosis cap. 6, that he who was punishable by death under that Judicial law, is punishable by death still; and he who was not punished by death then, is not to be punished by death now."

Jesus was baptized with John's baptism, which is different than Christian baptism (which we do in worship today). Thus, the baptism in which Jesus was baptized with does not show what mode we ought to baptize with today.

As for a word study, I would agree with Adam.

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Rev. Andrew J. Barnes
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Father of Oliver
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Pastor of Tchula Presbyterian Church

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Rev. Barnes,

This may obtain no doctrinal import, but I have a question:

Do you think that Peter and Andrew (for instance) received Christian baptism? If only John's then why were they not rebaptized?

Cheers,

Adam

David,

εἰς is preposition implying motion toward or relationship toward. So it does not have to mean "into" as "inside" but has the regular connotation of "up toward" "motion into or toward." So for example L&S cites its use in Homer as

εἰς ὦπα ἰδέσθαι - to look in the face

which we would never assume means one went inside another's face. It is a flexible word, as much asἐκis in "motion away from."

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Fred Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

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But it could mean 'into', correct?

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Yes, and could be used with "he walked into (eis) the stream, which was only ankle deep".

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Lance G. Marshall
Pastor
Georgetown, Indiana

Yes, just as ἐκ could mean either "out of" or away from."

Ken,

Indeed, it could mean into. Also, John went "into" the water. They also both came "out of" the water, which one of the Evangelists uses the term "apo" for; or, away from, helping to shape the interpretation of the preposition "eis".

Cheers,

Adam

Here are a couple of helpful charts I found quick on the web. I know I have a better one somewhere.

http://www.ancientpath.net/Bible/Res...isitions_a.htm

I might be mistaken (this is not my area of expertise or anything), I assume they received Christian Baptism since it was commanded by Christ to be done. Does Scripture have to tell of everyone's baptism?

Maybe I should ask (because maybe I am wrong) if John's baptism is Christian baptism? Is there a difference?

Rev. Barnes,

Calvin discusses the mater in the Institutes, and concludes that John's baptism is the same as Christian baptism, and therefore, Peter's baptism by John was not invalid. I found his arguments compelling at the time, and was interested in your thoughts.

Cheers,

Adam

I have no thoughts. Maybe I should read more. Although it would make sense since the Westminster divines used Scripture proofs of John's baptism with regard to Christian Baptism in Chapter 28.


I've always been taught (and apparently never came up in my learning) that Christian Baptism is different than John's baptism.

Furthermore, the banks of the Jordan are typically pretty steep for such a shallow stream. Therefore, you would have to stand in it to use the water at all. I agree, however, that the Jordan is pretty shallow for immersion.

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Rev. Lane Keister
Teaching Elder, PCA, North Dakota (working out of bounds in a CRC and an RCA church)
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Forgive me if I'm prying without cause, but are you speaking of the modern day condition of the Jordan? If so, are you assuming that the topography is the same today as then? Just curious...

-----Added 12/15/2008 at 07:07:08 EST-----


Thanks for sharing that usage of John's Baptism in our Confession. It appears to me that the usage made confirms Calvin's point.

This may be fodder for another thread, but I wonder sometimes if the usage made of Scripture should be considered part of being "confessional" as well as adopting certain positions. For instance, I have heard Deuteronomy 28 used as a "typical" passage, when its parallel, Leviticus 26, is cited by the divines to show God's curses on sin in this life. Thus, I would argue that seeing Deut 28 as typcal is a non-confessional position. Perhaps for another thread...

Cheers,

Possibly. I realize the difference in age. However, one would probably logically assume that in Jesus' day, the river was even shallower than it is today. As to the depth of the banks, I'm not sure how long it takes for a significant difference to develop. I would imagine that even 2000 years wouldn't do a whole lot, however.

As someone who has baptized people by immersion, it only takes about 18 inches to do so. It's convenient for the water to be waist deep but not necessary.

This has not bearing at all on the meaning of 'eis', however. I do not desire to take the thread off topic.

Actually 2000 years can do a lot to the depth of a river depending on the ground under it. And let's remember that the book of Joshua notes that at certain times of the year the Jordan's water level rose dramatically so that it flooded its banks at a point near Jericho.

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BMus. (Trombone Performance), University of Toronto
Dip. CS, Regent College, Vancouver
Member, First Baptist Church
Vancouver, BC
------------
"I once sat in darkness, and waited for the moon to rise.
I once sat in darkness, and waited for the sun to shine.
I once sat in darkness, when all the light I'd waited for was gone.
Then Jesus came, and now the only true light, ever, shines in me."
– John Deacon -

This is interesting Jordan River - LoveToKnow 1911

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Geoff/Reformed Baptist
Acworth, GA
John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


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Were you raised a Baptist? I was and that is what I was always taught, as well. I was rather surprised when I read your first post on the subject.

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Thomas Weddle
Member, Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church
Evansville, Indiana

Actually, David, the koine Greek around the time of the NT saw εἰς being often used in a very similar, if not identical, way to ἐν. In other words, assimilation was happening. Hence, one must be careful when coming across an εἰς that the context is observed.

Vale Davidius socius meus.

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Marty
Ordained Presbyter; Currently Lecturer in Theology
Anglican Church of Australia
(Now finally back! in) Perth, Australia.
"There is nothing so necessary to draw us to repentance as good thoughts of God." (Thomas Manton)

I was raised RC and then baptist, then reformed. Now a pastor who doesn't know the difference between John's Baptism and Chrisitan Baptism. May God help me...