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Originally Posted by SemperFideles I repeatedly hear from Baptists (in general) that the only status that children have is that they are in Adam and unregenerate. They claim this on the basis of the child's profession. | Rich, when you and other paedos make this kind of statement it really concerns me. It is as if you think that your children pop out already regenerate. The are unregenerate and in Adam. If you tell them that they are already God's children, what need is there for them to repent.
I know that I am presenting a false dichotomy here because all of life is repentance and faith. So that would probably be your response. But understand that we teach them the same thing. We do not say that they are already in covenant, but we teach them repentance and faith. We teach them the Gospel. We teach them the benefits of the gospel like Romans 6, which my family happens to be starting in our before-dinner reading. We teach them what it means to be united to Christ. We teach them that, by the grace of Almighty God, they have been put in a believing family so that they can hear and believe these things.
I simply don't see how making them wait to be baptized until after they grasp and have responded to the Gospel with repentance and faith would change that. We don't walk around telling our kids that they since they are unregenerate they have no interest in God. We treat them as if they are in need of the gospel, which they are. |
Fascinating again how you say they
are unregenerate when born. They might be but you do not know this. God does not reveal this of our children. He reveals only that a man must be born again to embrace the Gospel but, like the wind blows, doesn't tell us when. For you to pronounce: These are surely unregenerate is highly presumptuous given that we have Biblical data of believers regenerate in the womb.
I'm not even saying that you cannot say, broadly and with some confidence as Bruce noted, that professors in your Church are regenerated but you are making that claim too confidently in the contrast to how you are declaring surely that the intellectually immature are not regenerate. It almost seems as if you equate God's ability to regenerate with a child's ability to form thoughts and express them.
Do your small children love you? How do you know, when they are adults, they will not rebel against you when they have to decide to love you with an intellectual capacity informed by the costs of love? Perhaps you ought to withold present confidence about the love of your children for you until they are old enough to express it in a way that is intellectually suitable. Thus, at the moment, I would hold off on answering that question until you are certain of the answer.
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Conversely, those that are professors are presumed (too much I think) to be regenerate on the basis of profession.
| But, we follow the biblical pattern. Believe and be baptized is what you see throughout the NT. So, we do it that way. If an adult makes a profession, we baptize them. Do we "presume" that they are regenerate? I would say the early church did, but also had a healthy church discipline that would eventually separate the wheat from the chaff. Baptists churches have failed to uphold that discipline. So, most modern Baptists (those that don't hold to 1689) probably do presume too much. I don't know that the case can be made against healthy churches practicing church discipline.
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Again, though, I don't disagree with discipline but I do disagree with
pre-discipline - that is saying a person is out before they've rebelled. The fact is that your children
are disciples. I even found it fascinating that Randy acknowledged that everyone has a responsiblity to disciple their children. Baptist Churches seem to even take on a sense of responsibility for that. Yet they don't really do it formally, just informally. They treat them in every way like they are disciples but simply won't call them that until they've gotten to a certain grade. As I said before, it's like saying my child isn't a student until he can read on his own. My Pastor won't admit it but the fact that he has a little "Children's Church" moment with the kids, gives them a little sermon, and then prays with them is a perfect demonstration how Baptists will treat their kids in every way like disciples but prepare to be caned if you actually call them that before they profess!
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I don't see how paedos get around this, though. You guys keep young non-professing members from Communion because you don't think they are regenerate yet while at the same time allowing adult professors to the table. You assume the same thing about children that we do. They haven't yet been brought to repentance and faith, so they can't partake of communion.
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Communion, like the Passover, is for the mature disciple - the one who can grasp the nature of the Table. Simply because I do not teach my five year old Algebra does not follow that I do not consider him a student. The Table is for worthy recipients. Even adult disciples are sometimes barred (for differing reasons) but they do not cease being disciples in every case.
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My view is that ALL in the visible Church need the full orbed presentation - professors or too immature to profess. The full presentation will mature and convert babes and the full presentation will mature and convert adults.
| I agree and fail to see how withholding baptism from those who haven't in any way responded to the full presentation is against the pattern of the Bible.
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It's a matter of recognition and expectation. If children are strap hangers in terms of Covenant obligation to God then there's not really a sense in which you can enjoin a child to do something on the basis of love for Christ. That would be
presumptuous in your estimation. Conversely, when I discipline my child, I discipline him as a
Christian, pray with him, and have him understand that sin grieves His heavenly Father. I could not train him to think as a Christian now if I did not do so and, were I to wait, I would miss formative years of development getting the ideas of sin, repentance, and pleasing God in light of Christ into his bloodstream.
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