Hi, everyone.

I wanted to get some advice from y'all about the propriety of dating a Reformed Baptist girl. She is fairly young (21), and grew up in her RB church. She admits that she hasn't challenged her own views on theology much, but that she considered the "paedo" view as misunderstanding Scripture or perhaps an open option as "Christian liberty."

I know that some of you may have dated/married RBs (or former RBs), and I wondered what your experience was. How did you "convince" them? Or did they just "submit" to your authority? I'd be interested in hearing about other peoples' experiences here.

I grew up Baptist myself, but my "conversion" to the paedo side was so gradual, over years, that I can't really pinpoint a single definitive reason, prooftext, or "lightbulb" moment for me. I just kept seeing the fundamental connection between the covenant with Abraham and the covenant of grace as applied to the NT church, that it seemed to me a necessary inference to connect the function of circumcision with the function of baptism.

She seems to be just developing her knowledge of theology, so maybe she could use an R.C. Sproul-level introduction to paedobaptism. Please suggest to me any resource - book, online article, whatever, that would serve as a good primer to help persuade her Scripturally.

Thanks ahead of time.

Edited for signature:

David Gadbois
Aerospace Engineer
Member, Ontario United Reformed Church
Ontario, California
URCNA

[Edited on 9-27-2006 by Scott Bushey]

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David Gadbois
Aerospace Engineer
Member, Ontario United Reformed Church
Ontario, California
URCNA

Just out of curiousity, are you open to being "persuaded" that she might be correct?

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Mark Geoffriau
Attending Redeemer PCA
Jackson, MS

Seems like John Sartelle wrote a Sproul-level pamphlet on this topic -can't find mine right now, may have given it away.

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The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Hey, isn't that Gary North's Pastor?

I was given that booklet when I was a Credo-Baptist, and still have it somewhere. At the time, I didn't think very highly of it, though. It didn't seem very convincing.

What really DID make an impression on me, was John Murray's booklet entitled Christian Baptism. I was never quite the same after reading that one.

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Chad
He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved. (Psalms 15:5 KJV)

Dating is an interesting topic. I guess it is the same as courting. I really don't find it in scripture; I do not say this to derail the thread or create a debate. My concern is that as a Presbyterian, your theology is covenantal. You hold the covenant in high regard. You know from the start that the Reformed Baptist does not hold to this same degree. Dating someone who is not covenantal has the cart in front of the horse. You will commit your heart prior to having these things previously worked out. this is sad; so0meone may get hurt. You would never want to intentionally hurt your sister! If you find a woman that is likeminded, it will be one less thing to worry about.

[Edited on 9-27-2006 by Scott Bushey]

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Scott Bushey
Husband to Tina, father to Nicole, Danielle and Zoe
Member First Presbyterian Church of Margate PCA

Actually John Sartelle pastors our church now. He is a wonderful Gospel preacher that cuts Law and Gospel very straight. His pamphlet is not a collegiate treatment of the subject but a wonderful, short, concise and to the point understanding of it, designed to help the layman not confuse him. The Gospel permeates our infant baptism ceremonies and is a tremendous refreshing to all who behold it. It hits the high points and gives a great outline. No its not huge but few will ever be able to read a huge treatment on the subject. The Word of God need not always be complex. That's not against the complex, just a caution that it works in simple ways as well.

When the Gospel is seen in the Sacrament, the believer will be drawn to it as a moth to a flame, he cannot help it...regardless of the complexity of the treatment.

Some of our baptistic family attended our children's baptism and after seeing the ceremony and the Words of Gospel attending it, they actually replied, "I see why you should baptize your children". Others didn't fully grasp it but tearfully wished they did and it has set them to thinking.

So while the treatment may not be large or in depth it serves its purpose and teaches, which is at the end of the day the goal, to draw men to Christ in all things.

Blessings,

Ldh

__________________
Larry Hughes
Geologist
Tates Creek PCA
Lexington, KY
PCA

Galatians 4:29, "But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also."

David,

About the only advice I might offer, key word is offer for thought not as a rule, is that John Calvin himself married an anabaptist and taught her the means of grace.

I suppose it's different when the husband is the head and the decission of children from the marriage can be made easier than vice versa, but its tough any way I honestly think about it.

I hope that my own daughters would marry a like minded husband, not because I want to be a seperatist, isolationist or something but so that the continuity of the Gospel is given in the generations of my family down the road. It goes back, for me, seeing the Gospel in the Sacraments and the wonderful gift that is for the believer. Naturally I want that for my own children, their children and their childrens children as far as the Lord is pleased to do so. But my reach in time and space and calling is limited to my span of life here and now. So, I teach them.

Don't be discouraged about it, talk to her, teach her, you may be wonderfully surprised. I was, my wife's past was as arminian/charismatic as one might get (and she wouldn't mind me sharing that). The thought of baptizing our children to her back then would have been Martian let alone even thinkable. But now, I sometimes have to "cool her jets" on the subject she so was changed by the Word. So, talk to her and teach her, at least offer up some thoughts for her to consider. Let the Word work for you. And try not to be like I was, too pushy, one of my sin struggles!!

Blessings,

Larry

Larry,
The only problem I have with this type of thinking is that it is experimental. There are chances people will commit their hearts and get hurt; even families, never coming to the understanding. Many Christian marriages are divided because these most important issues were placed to the side in pursuit of that which drives the flesh, i.e. love. These are issues that need to be worked out prior to the hearts being inclined. We should protect each other in this regard. IMO, it is not the suitors responsibility to train up his friend. She should be trained, then he should court. Training and praying etc. are very intimate things reserved for husbands or in the least, those who are already on the same page.

If I am not mistaken, Calvins wife was already onboard prior to their marriage; when he met her she was previously a anabaptist.

[Edited on 9-27-2006 by Scott Bushey]

To clarify: when Calvin met Idelette, she was married and an Anabaptist. He counseled both her and her husband, they converted to the Reformed Faith, and then her husband died, leaving her a widow, before she got remarried to Calvin. See this thread:

and this:

__________________
Andrew Myers
Husband of Jessica, Father of Jackson, Katie and Samuel
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Northern Virginia
Warrenton, VA USA
Editor, The Matthew Poole Project

"Let your Morning Thoughts, and your last Evening Thoughts, be what shall become of you to all Eternity." -- Matthew Poole

Scott,

I can't disagree with you here on this at all. Like I said emotions, even mine, get in the way when I think about it. You are correct. That's why it was merely my opinion.

The divide on baptism is emotionally tough, I admit. Even though I defend staunchly the baptism of children for the sake of retaining the Gospel highest for all involved...I still find myself deeply sad at the divide among my baptist brethern on this issue.

It would be SO EASY for me personally in our family's and friend's relationships here to just cave in for the sake of unity. But I can't because of the Gospel in the Sacraments. I suppose this is the divide the Gospel can cause sometimes, but it is none-the-less heart wrenching at times for me.

I would be a gross liar if I said my own emotions didn't strike at me at times over this issue. I don't like conflict at all, in spite of what some of my strongest post appear like. But I cannot turn my back on the Gospel on this issue.

I understand what you are saying and cannot disagree.

Larry

Andrew,
Thank you for the clarification; Calvin did not train her with marriage in mind. By Gods amazing providence, they were wed!

My wife was a charismatic-leaning mainline Presbyterian when we met 25 years ago. She was home on temporary leave from the field (WBT). There was no future in the relationship at the time. We had met and became friends with something in common, as I had recently spent 2 years in Swaziland with Campus Crusade.

I was also mainline Presbyterian but had recently become convinced of the Reformed faith and was on a fast-track learning curve. When we began seeing each other I immediately begin passing on the instruction I had received. Beth was very open, receptive, and wanting to learn more. She was convinced as I showed her the Scriptures.

This was the grace of God, for both of us. Had it not been the case, the relationship never would have lasted.

__________________
~Jay~
Husband of ENS, father of J II. | Indian Trail, NC
Substitute Teacher
Communicant Member, Precentor | Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte, NC | Presbyterian Reformed Church

Jay,

Your experience sounds a lot like my own. My wife was a very charismatic SB, she'd tell you that. But when grace settled in she took the instruction. A couple of times it was some very heated discussions. But otherwise we wouldn't have lasted.

I was on a fast learning curve and it was somewhat easier initially for me since I came from rank atheism, the idea of sovereign grace was pretty plain to me and I thought it was wonderful - I knew point blank I was running from God directly and resisting Him and likewise point blank HE came to me, practically graciously invaded me so to speak. A bit of an advantage if there is one to be had by an atheist lies in being the furtherest out "spiritually" from ALL forms of religion. It is the most dangerous position, furtherest out, to be but in a sense it does afford some clarity after conversion. It's also one of the reasons I could later honestly approach the study of the sacraments "neutrally". I had no particular denominational baggage or "loyalties" and could "weigh" all positions from an equal fulcrum. All I wanted was the merciful God and I didn't care what denomination it was and still don't. Thus my undying loyalty lies in the mercy of God and His Gospel, not because I'm so pious but because that is what drives me being a sinner and having once been so far out.

But I digress.

Ldh

[Edited on 9-28-2006 by Larry Hughes]

Dave,

Here's my advice: Of course it is always better if you and your wife are in lock step agreement about everything theologically. But I, for one, don't think it is necessary. If this woman is willing to submit to you then I see no necessary reason to call it off.

One other thing: Most of the Reformed women I know were "converted" by means of their husbands. Most Christian women respect their husbands. As a result, most women find themselves thinking, "If my husband (whom I respect) thinks this way, then perhaps I should consider it..." So in a way, you can do what I playfully call "A-Team Evangelism" which is when we take someone who is already a Christian and convert them to Calvinism/Reformed theology. "A-Team Evangelism's" greatest successes are when those people are converted to such an extent that they even deny that they were formerly saved!

[Edited on 9-28-2006 by SolaScriptura]

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Ben
Sanford, NC
TE Ohio Valley Presbytery, PCA

The most important thing I tell my single friend to look for in a possible mate is that she would be biblically submissive and teachable.

That's the way it was with my wife. She was an ex-catholic, and I was a Lutheran turned evagellyfish. When I came to Calvinism, and later explained it to her, she had a day or two of the "that's not fair's", but after that was able to talk about it and understand it without much difficulty.

Later, we became heavily involved in a "Reformed" Baptist church plant. I even was teaching and preaching occasionally, and had become a deacon. Then I came around to paeodbaptism, high-church presbyterianism, etc, and needed to resign my office and give up teaching. When I told my wife, it was in the context of a verse our pastor had referenced in the sermon that morning - Q: what do you call a person who is raised in the fear and admonition of the Lord? A: a disciple. Q:and what do you do with disciples? A: baptize them. She was shocked, and her immediate response was "that can't be, you're the one who's read all those books on it, you know all the arguments". After the initial shock, she was perfectly teachable, and didn't have any problem or objection. She is, indeed, more precious than jewels.

FWIW, I also had her read this father-to-daughter article to solidify some things we had talked about; it's irenic tone was very conducive to understanding:

http://www.thirdmill.org/newfiles/de...n.Baptism.html


By the way, Dave, you have a U2U. It's that flashing thingy in the upper right hand corner of the page.

__________________
Philip A - Member, High Desert United Reformed Church, Apple Valley, CA.

"Reason also is choice" - Milton, Paradise Lost
"And then shall every word also seem consistent to him, if he for his part diligently read the Scriptures in company with those who are presbyters in the Church, among whom is the apostolic doctrine, as I have pointed out." - Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:XXXII.
"where there is text, there is hope" - Richard A. Muller

One thing you might also want to consider is her parents. Are they strong credo baptists? Is her family tight? Do they have considerable influence over her? Would her father want to ring your neck for turning her into a Presbyterian? Though you are only dating her, if she looks like the one for marriage, then remember this; when you take a wife, you get the whole family as well!!

__________________
~Wayne Wylie~
Member, Mid Cities Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Ruling Elder - Inactive
http://www.mcopc.org
Bedford, TX

Job 28:28 - And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

FWIW

My wife was still a baptist when we met, and I was 'converting' to the reformed faith. She came right along with me. So far so good. Her dad is a Baptist pastor of the indy-fundy type. He on the other hand was not impressed.

Long story short; he objected & did not come to the wedding. In his view we are not christians anymore and are dupes of the ant-christ working to establish the one-world church and revive the roman empire in our spare time.

So my advice is go forward only if she is open to being a 'submissive' wife and you can 'handle' the flack from in-laws.

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Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB

He sounds like an overbearing jerk.

[Edited on 9-28-2006 by SolaScriptura]

Wow, did he actually come out and say that to you and your wife???

[Edited on 9-28-2006 by blhowes]

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Bob Howes
Framingham, MA

A reoccurring thought:

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

We knew of a micro-P church where an elder's wife was a baptist and NOT a member of the church. I have a hard time with that in light of the NT.

Said that and a lot more, on many (every) time we see him.

I should have added that we got very good pre-marital counselling from the presbyterian (CofC) pastor that married us.

His advice was that since D. was objecting on grounds beyond his authority, i.e. he was trying to bind my wifes conscience to profess a doctrine she no longer believed, his objection was moot.

Now that I have a more covenental view (more scriptural) of the family I feel bad about marrying against his wishes, but I don't regret it. If that makes any sense.

Philip A,

Thanks a lot for your recommendations for Dennis johnson's article from earlier. That is, indeed, an excellent article - probably the best introduction to paedobaptism I have run across.

I sent the link to the article to the RB girl I am talking to. I also sent some other links (some sermon transcripts I found at Kim Riddlebarger's site). She said that she is willing to discuss things and wants to learn about the issues since she is trying to come to her own biblical convictions (instead of just following what she grew up with), so I don't see any harm in continuing to talk at this point.

Thankfully, her parents do not have strong feelings on this matter, so I don't think they will look down on me for it. Plus, her church follows the LBC and has a formal liturgy (not unlike the order of service at my own URC), so I don't think she is that far off. We will see, cautiously, what the Lord's providence has for us.