Will,

Let me understand, is what you are saying that Presbyterians obviously lack a thorough exegesis, etc and clear understanding of the issues otherwise they would be Baptists?

Isn't that a bit disingenuous?

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Tom Albrecht
Member, Covenant URCNA, New Holland, PA.

"I'm not a famous man. I'm just a simple country doctor with horse sense."

No, it was merely a demonstration to reciprocate the same line of bad logic being presented by the brother to whom I was responding to show that such a method of argumentation doesn't do anything but cause emotional heat. But he clarified himself, and I had misread his post. So please don't read into it. Thanks.

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Will Shin
Rockville, MD

I find it illogical that Baptists conflate their position on credobaptism with a position on the mode of baptism. The arguments and consequences of those arguments for each position are very different but they are presented as an inevitible logical package.

As has been pointed out the insistence (rather than the strong preference) on mode is very hard to defend, either theologically or historically.

The rather counterintuitive conclusion that arises is also that Baptists have a rather low (in a theological rather than a moral sense) view of baptism.

A Presbyterian would not accept anyone who has not been baptised as a member of the Church, baptism is so important it is not optional. A Baptist does not accept that a presbyterian has been baptised but still accepts that person as a member of the Church.

For a Baptist the administration of baptism is subjective (was it a real profession of faith, did the baptised really feel repentant, was the water deep enough?) wheras for a presbyterian it is an objective fact.

I do not think that paedobaptists such as myself should get too worked up on this subject as we have no problem with believers baptism as being valid and the mode of baptism is of limited importance, there is also historical acceptance of their position. It is much more a problem for Baptists and how they are able to have fellowship with those they see as unbaptised. However it is an important point and it is unsatisfactory to just repeat what a confession says.

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Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

Egggs actly!!!!

__________________
Ryan Barnhart - Pastor of OGBC
Husband to a beautiful wife, Father to two beautiful girls
"But by the grace of God I am what I am." I Corinthians 15:10

"I confess to you, that if I can but live and die serving the Lord Jesus, it will make no difference to me whether I am eaten by Cannibals or by worms. And in the Great Day my Resurrection body will rise as fair as yours in the likeness of our risen Redeemer." - John Paton

Allow me to make a point of clarification on this matter. Currently, Baptists are divided on this issue about our relationship with paedobaptists desiring to join Baptist churches. One group of Baptists want to have the attitude of the Presbyterians of recognizing paedobaptism as legitimate baptism and, consequently, accepting them into membership. Another group of Baptists remain firm to the historical doctrinal position Baptists have always stood on from the beginning by not recognizing paedobaptism as legitimate, and thus until they are baptized by professed believers, are not considered members but mere visitors or guests.

I haven't run into the scenario you give where a church rejects paedobaptism but nonetheless accepts them into church membership. If such Baptist churches and groups do exist, they are definitely in the wrong.

Please note one thing. Many Baptist churches today are in terrible shape on this issue of baptism and church membership. Which is why the SBC had an annual meeting earlier this month to discuss the issue of Regenerate Church Membership. Much of the historical and theological foundations have been lost as a result of pragmatism, church growth movement, liberalism, etc. So Founder's Ministry, 9Marks, and other Reformed Baptist ministries are calling all Baptists back to the biblical and historically Baptist roots.

If you wish to see a true model of historic Reformed Baptist ecclesiology of baptism and its implication to church membership, please visit an ARBCA church or CHBC in D.C. Any other Baptist church, including many associated with Founders Ministry, are in various stages on this.

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Will Shin
Rockville, MD

You misunderstand my point, it is not that baptists accept paedobaptists as members of their church (which as you say would be a minority position) but that they accept paedobaptists as members of the visible Catholic Church. I would not equate a single Baptist church with "The Church".

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Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."