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08-25-2007, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by victorbravo  Ryan, please know that I'm one who has been challenged and helped by your posts here.
And let me echo Rich. The Baptism threads can be the most trying of all on this board because we (credos and paedos) really do want to be obedient to our God's word. I'm grateful that Paul M. has reminded us that there is a real difficulty here that probably won't be resolved until we are united, praising the Worthy Lamb, in glory. Nevertheless, we are brothers in Christ.
Stay strong, brother, and remember your weaknesses. We all have them. Stay in touch. | Thank you very much, Vic. Those were extremely gracious words.
I'm starting to feel like a pampered baby that needed a little attention. If you guys knew my personality you would laugh because that is just not me. I'm the one that stands in the corner all alone at a dinner party. Even my family get onto me about not opening up enough. I feel like I'm on Dr. Phil tonight. 
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"But by the grace of God I am what I am." I Corinthians 15:10
"I confess to you, that if I can but live and die serving the Lord Jesus, it will make no difference to me whether I am eaten by Cannibals or by worms. And in the Great Day my Resurrection body will rise as fair as yours in the likeness of our risen Redeemer." - John Paton
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08-25-2007, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Barnpreacher Quote:
Originally Posted by victorbravo Ryan, please know that I'm one who has been challenged and helped by your posts here.
And let me echo Rich. The Baptism threads can be the most trying of all on this board because we (credos and paedos) really do want to be obedient to our God's word. I'm grateful that Paul M. has reminded us that there is a real difficulty here that probably won't be resolved until we are united, praising the Worthy Lamb, in glory. Nevertheless, we are brothers in Christ.
Stay strong, brother, and remember your weaknesses. We all have them. Stay in touch. | Thank you very much, Vic. Those were extremely gracious words.
I'm starting to feel like a pampered baby that needed a little attention. If you guys knew my personality you would laugh because that is just not me. I'm the one that stands in the corner all alone at a dinner party. Even my family get onto me about not opening up enough. I feel like I'm on Dr. Phil tonight. |
Most people don't know that I'm an extreme introvert either. The only difference is that I stand by the food!
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08-25-2007, 01:00 AM
|  | Norseman Moderator | | Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Speedway, Indiana
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Originally Posted by victorbravo Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnpreacher Quote:
Originally Posted by victorbravo Ryan, please know that I'm one who has been challenged and helped by your posts here.
And let me echo Rich. The Baptism threads can be the most trying of all on this board because we (credos and paedos) really do want to be obedient to our God's word. I'm grateful that Paul M. has reminded us that there is a real difficulty here that probably won't be resolved until we are united, praising the Worthy Lamb, in glory. Nevertheless, we are brothers in Christ.
Stay strong, brother, and remember your weaknesses. We all have them. Stay in touch. | Thank you very much, Vic. Those were extremely gracious words.
I'm starting to feel like a pampered baby that needed a little attention. If you guys knew my personality you would laugh because that is just not me. I'm the one that stands in the corner all alone at a dinner party. Even my family get onto me about not opening up enough. I feel like I'm on Dr. Phil tonight. |
Most people don't know that I'm an extreme introvert either. The only difference is that I stand by the food! |  I am no introvert but I like standing by the food.
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08-25-2007, 01:14 AM
|  | Puritanboard Professor | | Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Wrightwood, CA
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Originally Posted by Paul G. Woods Baptist brethren, do you believe a five year old has the cognitive ability to have true faith in Christ and be baptized. | This seems like a strange question. Should the questions be, "Do you believe a five year old has the cognitive ability to have true faith in Christ and therefore be baptized?"
If you are asking whether it is possible that a 5 year old could have true faith in Christ, then the answer is 'absolutely'! I know several five year olds that have greater faith than myself!
The question as to whether they should be baptized lies in the decision of the elders.
Personally I don't see any biblical reason to wait. We are baptists. We take the command 'beleive and be baptized' literally. If you find a command in the Bible for a probationary period between profession and baptism wouldn't it apply to adults as much, if not more so, as children? Wouldn't we be adding to the word of God by requiring more of children than the Phillipian jailer?
But, once again, the elders must be unified in the decision and I would respect their decision.
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08-25-2007, 01:46 AM
|  | The Delinquent | | Join Date: May 2003 Location: Dallas, Texas
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Originally Posted by thunaer My previous pastor gave a sermon on this a number of years ago... Let me dig it out so I can get every point he brings out regarding why we wait.... Maybe if I can copy the sermon into an MP3 and upload it might be better..... Let me see what I can do..... | If at all possible, I'd appreciate the main biblical points given, as I don't have the time right now to listen to the sermon.
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08-25-2007, 01:50 AM
| | The Delinquent | | Join Date: May 2003 Location: Dallas, Texas
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Originally Posted by puritancovenanter I can't speak for many Baptists because I have not had much interaction with them. But at the last Baptist Church I attended the Elders and Parents both met together to examine the child to make a decision concerning the child's qualifications or candidacy for baptism. I think that is a wise way to do it because maturity and understanding are arrived at during different ages for each child. I do know of adults who after examination were held off until they had a better grasp of the gospel and how their lives related to it. It should be the same way for children also. And some adults have wanted to be baptised just so they could be members of the Church. Elder examinations are very wise and it was practised in the early church. That is a consistent way of looking at the situation. | I'm not really asking about the practical reasons why, but the biblical substantiation for waiting to baptize a professing child.
I was converted at age 9 and baptized in a lake a week later.
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08-25-2007, 02:18 AM
| | Norseman Moderator | | Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Speedway, Indiana
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Originally Posted by joshua Quote:
Originally Posted by puritancovenanter I can't speak for many Baptists because I have not had much interaction with them. But at the last Baptist Church I attended the Elders and Parents both met together to examine the child to make a decision concerning the child's qualifications or candidacy for baptism. I think that is a wise way to do it because maturity and understanding are arrived at during different ages for each child. I do know of adults who after examination were held off until they had a better grasp of the gospel and how their lives related to it. It should be the same way for children also. And some adults have wanted to be baptised just so they could be members of the Church. Elder examinations are very wise and it was practised in the early church. That is a consistent way of looking at the situation. | I'm not really asking about the practical reasons why, but the biblical substantiation for waiting to baptize a professing child.
I was converted at age 9 and baptized in a lake a week later. | Well as I stated earlier Josh... My wife had my kids saying the sinners prayer at age 5. I knew they didn't comprehend the fulness of it. In fact Joshua Caleb just is really coming to fully understand the grips his baptism has on him. He didn't understand the Gospel until the last year or so. I am glad I waited. It was kind of a discipleship thing between he and I. I have made a habit of examining my kids. And watching them to find out most of the time I have perceived things correctly.
Now concerning your situation I really can't comment on. I didn't know you. I do know of children who were about 9 who were baptised and they did comprehend. I know that because I have seen their lives for the past 7 years. And they went through the situation of parental and Elder examiniation as I have mentioned above. I truly believe the Parent along with the Church Elders can examine and discern what is going on in a persons life. Adults and Children alike.
You must have been one of the good ones....  |
08-25-2007, 02:29 AM
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One more thing Josh... The early church fathers thought it wise to make people go thru pre baptism teaching before they were baptised. They even started a thing called exorcism which a person was purified by before he or she was baptised. Baptismal practices in the early church grew into some strange practices.
This is really a good read and worth your penny to invest in. |
08-25-2007, 02:52 AM
| | The Delinquent | | Join Date: May 2003 Location: Dallas, Texas
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Originally Posted by puritancovenanter Well as I stated earlier Josh... My wife had my kids saying the sinners prayer at age 5. I knew they didn't comprehend the fulness of it. In fact Joshua Caleb just is really coming to fully understand the grips his baptism has on him. He didn't understand the Gospel until the last year or so. I am glad I waited. It was kind of a discipleship thing between he and I. I have made a habit of examining my kids. And watching them to find out most of the time I have perceived things correctly.
Now concerning your situation I really can't comment on. I didn't know you. I do know of children who were about 9 who were baptised and they did comprehend. I know that because I have seen their lives for the past 7 years. And they went through the situation of parental and Elder examiniation as I have mentioned above. I truly believe the Parent along with the Church Elders can examine and discern what is going on in a persons life. Adults and Children alike.
You must have been one of the good ones.... | Quote:
Originally Posted by puritancovenanter One more thing Josh... The early church fathers thought it wise to make people go thru pre baptism teaching before they were baptised. They even started a thing called exorcism which a person was purified by before he or she was baptised. Baptismal practices in the early church grew into some strange practices.
This is really a good read and worth your penny to invest in. http://www.amazon.com/Baptism-Early-.../dp/0952791315 | No offense, Randy, but I'm still waiting for a scriptural case supporting the aforementioned subect matter. Where is it even implied in Scripture, by good and necessary inference/consequence, to have this waiting period of which has been discussed in the thread.
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08-25-2007, 03:26 PM
|  | Puritanboard Sophomore | | Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bunceton, Mo
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Originally posted by SemperFideles, I recently came to the conclusion that these conversations tend to belie the division betwen credo- and paedo- baptists on this issue.
| In putting forth this question, I was looking for dialogue and other points of view, not amplification of division. Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul G. Woods
Baptist brethren, do you believe a five year old has the cognitive ability to have true faith in Christ and be baptized.
This seems like a strange question. Should the questions be, "Do you believe a five year old has the cognitive ability to have true faith in Christ and therefore be baptized?"
If you are asking whether it is possible that a 5 year old could have true faith in Christ, then the answer is 'absolutely'! I know several five year olds that have greater faith than myself!
The question as to whether they should be baptized lies in the decision of the elders.
Personally I don't see any biblical reason to wait. We are baptists. We take the command 'beleive and be baptized' literally. If you find a command in the Bible for a probationary period between profession and baptism wouldn't it apply to adults as much, if not more so, as children? Wouldn't we be adding to the word of God by requiring more of children than the Phillipian jailer?
But, once again, the elders must be unified in the decision and I would respect their decision.
| I could have stated the question differently as KMK noted. The reason I do not put therefore in is because the Bible says Quote:
"Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself." 40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"
Acts 2:38-40 (NASB77)
| Proffession and baptism go hand in hand.
My five year old was baptized because I refused to tell her that even though the Bible says repent, believe and be baptized it does not mean you. I cannot find anywhere in the Bible where one is to deny baptism to a believer.
As to voting and church discipline: Quote:
Originally Posted by thunaer ,Think of it like voting in our country... A child can only vote what his parents tell him to vote for, so it is an extension of his parents vote. In essence the parents gets two votes out of it... So our country does not allow for a minor to vote until he is of age... An Age of maturity... An age that he can publicly stand on his own... The same holds true for signing contracts... a Child can not sign a contract.. It is taught to us by Common Grace through Natural law. We also see when a child is no longer a child in the scripture and can stand apart from his parents... When Moses was "of age" he was able to say I am not the son of Pharoah's Daughter. The same in the New Testament regarding the man who was blind and the people went to the parents of the man by what way does this man see and his parents told them He is "Of age" go ask him..... So a child is only an extension of his parents until he is of age.. A Child can only parrot what his parents tell him too... A Child can be toss to and fro by every wind of doctrine whether good or bad. He can be tossed to good doctrine absent of a regenerate heart.... It is hard enough trying to discern if an adult is truly saved HOW much more so for a child.... I believe through the common grace of natural law and the biblical examples of when a child is no longer an extension of his parents and can stand on his own to profess a credible confession then we need to hold off on baptism.
Also a child who is baptized is a full member of the church with all the voting rights of the church and all the discipline of the church... Are you going to allow a child to vote in serious church affairs for which he has no understanding... Or what if a child said he is saved, gets baptize, and later commits sin... Now he is liable to the church disciple of the church when he should be still under the disciple of the parents...
| Our daughter cannot vote concerning the affairs of the church. One can be a member with restrictions. I am a citizen of the US but I have limitations. I could not vote until I was 18. I could not drink until I was 21 and so on and so on.
Discipline, right now our daughter falls under the discipline of the church through its oversight of the head of the household. If my daughter is in sin and refuses to repent the church goes to the head of the household and discipline is administered by him outside the context of the congregation but possibly before the elders if the situation should warrant.
As a Baptist I will point my daughter back to her baptism and encourage her to improve it much like our Presbyterian brethren do there children(except she will remember her baptism).
As far as making a case for our maturity before baptism, I believe one could slip into extremes here. Why, maybe one should get a seminary education before he is baptized.
John Piper says it well in a sermon on Romans 5:20 - 6:4, he says, Quote:
One of the great things about this text is that it shows that, if you understand what baptism portrays, you understand what really happened to you when you became a Christian. Many of us came to faith and were baptized at a point when we did not know very much. This is good. It is expected that baptism happens early in the Christian walk when you do not know very much. So it is also expected that you will learn later more and more of what it means.
Don't think, "Oh, I must go back and get baptized again. I didn't know it had all this meaning." No. No. That would mean you would be getting re-baptized with every new course you take in Biblical theology. Rather, rejoice that you expressed your simple faith in obedience to Jesus and now are learning more and more of what it all meant. That is what Paul is doing here: he is hoping that his readers know what their baptism meant, but he goes ahead and teaches them anyway, in case they don't or have forgotten. Learn from these verses what you once portrayed in the eyes of God, and what actually happened to you in becoming a Christian. http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceL...tism_Portrays/ |
If we should baptize an unbeliever, church discipline will take care of that by bringing them to faith and repentance or they will leave the church willingly and have no desire to be a part of the church. I believe in regenerate church membership and that is preserved(though not 100%) through church discipline, not denying baptism. There will be tares among the wheat.
There's my 
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08-25-2007, 04:21 PM
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Paul - please forgive me for not weighing in on your thread ealier. Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul G. Woods Baptist brethren, do you believe a five year old has the cognitive ability to have true faith in Christ... | Yes. Normative? No. Possible? Yes. If person is saved (child or adult) they are to be baptized. Confidence in a childs salvation rests with the parents and the leadership of the church. Quote: |
Do, you believe that God draws His elect out at such a young age to embrace him by faith?
| Yes, I do. Again, normative? No.
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08-25-2007, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Barnpreacher Quote:
Originally Posted by PastorFaulk Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnpreacher This thread is proof that if you ask 10 different credo's who are the proper recipients of baptism, you'd get 10 different answers.
At least paedo's are consistent in this area. | I think we all agree that baptism is an ordinance observed when one evidences faith in Christ. This is the biblical model seen through out the book of Acts, and taught clearly in the New Testament. That said goodness knows there are plenty of credo paedo discussions going on. This is really as discussion on when, if an age of accountability exists. | I was not trying to hijack the thread with a credo/paedo discussion. My point was, credo's don't believe that infants are the proper recipients of baptism. But I've just sat here and read that some believe 5 year olds are proper recipients of baptism. Some believe you have to be between 17 and 25 to be proper recipients of baptism. Others probably believe you have to be at least 7 or 8 to be the proper recipient of baptism. Still others would say somewhere between 13-15.
?????????
Where's the consistency? | Ryan - excellent point. Having participated in a thread that Rich started, it's obvious that Baptists have problems with cohesion in doctrine, especially on baptism. I believe this stems from our independence and disdain of ecclesiastical authority. It's one of the negative aspects of independency. For those Baptist churches that are truly confessional there should be more unity on the issue of Baptism, although there are always going to remain inherent problems. This thread is proof of that. How young is too young to make a profession of faith? How young is too young to be baptized? I'm probably wishing with this next statement, but I would like to see unity among confessional Baptists on these (and other) questions. Would it stop a Baptist from being a Baptist if he was in doctrinal agreement with other Baptists?
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08-25-2007, 04:48 PM
| | Norseman Moderator | | Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Speedway, Indiana
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Originally Posted by joshua Quote:
Originally Posted by puritancovenanter Well as I stated earlier Josh... My wife had my kids saying the sinners prayer at age 5. I knew they didn't comprehend the fulness of it. In fact Joshua Caleb just is really coming to fully understand the grips his baptism has on him. He didn't understand the Gospel until the last year or so. I am glad I waited. It was kind of a discipleship thing between he and I. I have made a habit of examining my kids. And watching them to find out most of the time I have perceived things correctly.
Now concerning your situation I really can't comment on. I didn't know you. I do know of children who were about 9 who were baptised and they did comprehend. I know that because I have seen their lives for the past 7 years. And they went through the situation of parental and Elder examiniation as I have mentioned above. I truly believe the Parent along with the Church Elders can examine and discern what is going on in a persons life. Adults and Children alike.
You must have been one of the good ones.... | Quote:
Originally Posted by puritancovenanter One more thing Josh... The early church fathers thought it wise to make people go thru pre baptism teaching before they were baptised. They even started a thing called exorcism which a person was purified by before he or she was baptised. Baptismal practices in the early church grew into some strange practices.
This is really a good read and worth your penny to invest in. http://www.amazon.com/Baptism-Early-.../dp/0952791315 | No offense, Randy, but I'm still waiting for a scriptural case supporting the aforementioned subect matter. Where is it even implied in Scripture, by good and necessary inference/consequence, to have this waiting period of which has been discussed in the thread. |
Josh, I am not sure you can find one. I have just taken it upon myself as a parent to discern where my kids are and to try to assess their standing before God by what they exhibit. I surely don't want them to make a false confession or be baptised so that they could be a member of the Church just for status sake. I think that is a damnable thing to do whether it be a child or adult. It would be like partaking of the LORD's Table in an unworthy manner in my estimation. Is it full proof? No. But it is my responsibility to make sure they are right and to train them up right and honest? Yes, to the best of my ability. And it is my responsibility to keep them from making decisions based upon a wrong motive? Yes it is.
I am called to train them up in the way they should go.
Last edited by PuritanCovenanter; 08-25-2007 at 05:18 PM..
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08-25-2007, 05:11 PM
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My daughter came to my room one night around 2 am when she was about 7 years old. She was crying and told me she couldn't sleep. She told me through her tears that she was not saved that that she was afraid of going to hell. I told her to repent of her sin and look unto Jesus to save her and trust only in him to save her and keep her. I prayed with her asked the Lord to open her eyes and give her the faith to believe. I can still here her little voice crying Jesus, please save me, Jesus please save me. She was baptized about a month later.
She's 19 now. She has manifested the grace of Christ in her life since that time and has managed for the most part, though not perfectly, to control youthfull lusts that hinder the service of many her age. The Lord has truly blessed me through my daughter and we have a great relationship. She's even hinted to me about going to the mission field.
Yes, I believe that young children can truly believe.
__________________ 1689 Baptist Confession
Psa 55:16 As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
Psa 55:17 Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.
James Farley, Wilderness Road Baptist Assembly.
Husband of Melissa and father of Ann. www.wildernessroadbaptist.org |
08-25-2007, 05:23 PM
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