I have a question with regards to the recognition of only baptism. If a person is baptised in a liberal church and say, by female clergy, is that baptism valid?

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Jeff Wyman
Seminarian
Little Farms Chapel OPC, Coopersville, MI
Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary, Grand Rapids, MI

"May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence." 1 Peter 1:2-3 (ESV)

Does the church have an orthodox confession?

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

Let's use either the United Methodist Church or the United Church of Christ.

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Jeff Wyman
Seminarian
Little Farms Chapel OPC, Coopersville, MI
Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary, Grand Rapids, MI

"May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence." 1 Peter 1:2-3 (ESV)

I'm thinking that those who take the position that Roman Catholic baptism is invalid would have to say no to be consistent, whether the clergy is female or not. Those who accept RC baptism would likely say such a baptism is irregular but not invalid so long as the church does not deny the trinity, etc.

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Chris
OPC member
Now attending Grace Community Baptist Church
Mandeville, LA

"Faith alone saves, but it is a faith that works." - S. Lewis Johnson

Not being from the USA, I don't know the lie of the land; so have these churches enshrined damnable heresy in their Confessions?

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

Wasn't this at least partly discussed in this thread?

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~James Helbert~, Wytheville, VA
Providence Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCUS
TheBibleAlone.com / The Edinburgh Inn
"Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” - Zechariah 3:2

I don't know about the UMC, but I was baptized in the UCC which is congregationalist. The church I went to has written, "While we have never standardized dogmas and doctrines, preferring to operate from a simple Covenant of Church Membership, our traditional view has been that children are born into the world quite acceptable to God..."

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Scott Roper
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA): "A bunch of hippie Calvinists"
Winston-Salem, NC

That is Pelagianism written into its official documents; therefore, I would say its not a true church of Christ, and its baptism is invalid.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

Wasn't circumcision valid in apostate Israel? And they crucified the Lord of Glory.

Ron

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Ronald W. DiGiacomo / Ruling Elder
Christ Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Elkton, Maryland

http://reformedapologist.blogspot.com

If in the name of the tiune God and with water, then yes. Although very irregular.

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Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB

I too prefer "irregular" to answer the OP, since we know not the specific church (though one was suggested in a later post). I might characterize a Mormon baptism as "invalid."

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BJ Mora
Grace OPC, Modesto, CA
Reformed & Presbyterian Churches & Denominations in North America

Yes, Mormon, JW, Christadelphian, etc. are invalid.

Some churches in liberal denominations are more sound than others, and some are still basically orthodox. Evidently there are still some RCA congregations, for example, that are sound. Also you have the Southern Baptist Convention and other more "evangelical" churches some of which, ecclesiological issues aside, are quite sound and others, even in the Deep South, that are essentially as liberal as what you'd expect with the NCC/WCC churches. So if we are going to go down this road, it would necessitate not only examining the denomination in which a prospective member was baptized, but also the particular church as well as the minister.

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Chris
OPC member
Now attending Grace Community Baptist Church
Mandeville, LA

"Faith alone saves, but it is a faith that works." - S. Lewis Johnson

Good question, here are two answers:

1. Israel was not officially divorced from Christ until 70 AD; hence the apostles could worship in the temple and synagogue.

2. As circumcision was a physical sign, there is no way that you could not accept it.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

...I was Baptized UMC, but when I brought it up with my PCA Pastor, he told me that since the Trinitarian formula was invoked the Baptism was valid.

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~etexas~

So tell me, if someone was standing on the street throwing water over people in the name of the Trinity would that count as a valid baptism?

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

The argument is absurd Daniel, that is not a "baptism" and we both know it! Further my Pastor is a member of the PB! If you wish to argue the validity of my Baptism I can PM his "handle" to you and you can hash it out with him!

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~etexas~

So it might seem, but what is the difference between that and a baptism in an apostate church?

Neither "baptism" has been carried out by a minister of Christ in a true Christian church.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

I was sprinkled at age 11 or 12 in the United Methodist Church and later, when laboring under baptistic beliefs, immersed in a Wesleyan church that was sounder in its preaching than probably any Southern Baptist church in that area (I was a 5 pointer at that time as well). Both churches have essentially classic Wesleyan/Arminian statements of faith with the former being "liberal" and the latter being "conservative". It appears that at least one poster in this thread would say that both baptisms are invalid. FWIW I say such a belief is anabaptistic and more fitting with a Landmark Baptist (if not Donatist) mentality than an historic Reformed one.

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Chris
OPC member
Now attending Grace Community Baptist Church
Mandeville, LA

"Faith alone saves, but it is a faith that works." - S. Lewis Johnson

I was Baptized by an Ordained Pastor in a Church, the fact that the Pastor was Arminian points more towards being irregular than "Apostate".

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~etexas~

The Sins of Adult Rebaptism and Leaving One's Bapties Unbaptised
Calvin On the Validity of "Romish" Baptism
Catabaptism in the Presbyterian Church in America

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Chris
OPC member
Now attending Grace Community Baptist Church
Mandeville, LA

"Faith alone saves, but it is a faith that works." - S. Lewis Johnson

That was one of James White's arguments against Doug Wilson. I forgot what Wilson said in reply. The debate in whole was misleading--it was supposed to be over FV related issues but turned into a baptism debate.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

I agree with you there. Sorry for any misunderstanding, not knowing the US church to well, I don't know who the apostates are, so I presumed that when you mentioned that group they were officially apostate.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)