Baptism and Assurance

turmeric · #1 (**permalink**) 01-30-2007, 09:29 PM

Can someone help me here? I really do not see how one can look to one's baptism for assurance of salvation. I've heard that mentioned here and don't quite see it. After all, one doesn't know whether soneone is saved or not when he/she is baptized, (even if that person makes a profession one can't know it's real). If you are looking back at a promise, a fake Christian can look back at the same event and set of Scriptures. I realize baptism is a sign of trust, whether in an adult convert or a parent having his child baptized, but how can it provide assurance...? Thoughts?

armourbearer · #2 (**permalink**) 01-30-2007, 09:56 PM

When dealing with sacramental efficacy I have found this rule of Calvin's to be important: "From this sacrament, as from all others, we obtain only as much as we receive in faith" (Institutes, 4:15:15).

I think the use of baptism for external assurance, as one finds especially in continental reformed writings, is preliminary to assurance proper, which is internal. It certifies that the promises of God have been made to us, and we have no reason to reject them on the basis of specious questionings of whether we are elect or not.

Me Died Blue · #3 (**permalink**) 01-30-2007, 10:32 PM

That it assures us of how our faith is used to unite us to Christ is key. It certainly does not assure us of our possession of faith itself (there was an excellent discussion on that here); rather, because of its objectivity as a physical sign, it points us to the objectivity and unshakable nature of what we have in Christ if we do possess that faith. The Belgic Confession and Heidelberg Catechism do an excellent job at explaining this:

From BC 34:

Quote:

In this way he signifies to us that just as water washes away the dirt of the body when it is poured on us and also is seen on the body of the baptized when it is sprinkled on him, so too the blood of Christ does the same thing internally, in the soul, by the Holy Spirit. It washes and cleanses it from its sins and transforms us from being the children of wrath into the children of God.

HC 69-73:

Quote:

Question 69. How art thou admonished and assured by holy baptism, that the one sacrifice of Christ upon the cross is of real advantage to thee?

Answer: Thus: That Christ appointed this external washing with water, adding thereto this promise, that I am as certainly washed by his blood and Spirit from all the pollution of my soul, that is, from all my sins, as I am washed externally with water, by which the filthiness of the body is commonly washed away.

Question 70. What is it to be washed with the blood and Spirit of Christ?

Answer: It is to receive of God the remission of sins, freely, for the sake of Christ's blood, which he shed for us by his sacrifice upon the cross; and also to be renewed by the Holy Ghost, and sanctified to be members of Christ, that so we may more and more die unto sin, and lead holy and unblamable lives.

Question 71. Where has Christ promised us, that he will as certainly wash us by his blood and Spirit, as we are washed with the water of baptism?

Answer: In the institution of baptism, which is thus expressed: "Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost", Matt.28:19. And "he that believeth, and is baptized, shall be saved; but he that believeth not, shall be damned.", Mark 16:16. This promise is also repeated, where the scripture calls baptism "the washing of regenerations" and the washing away of sins. Tit.3:5, Acts 22:16.

Question 72. Is then the external baptism with water the washing away of sin itself?

Answer: Not at all: for the blood of Jesus Christ only, and the Holy Ghost cleanse us from all sin.

Question 73. Why then does the Holy Ghost call baptism "the washing of regeneration," and "the washing away of sins"?

Answer: God speaks thus not without great cause, to-wit, not only thereby to teach us, that as the filth of the body is purged away by water, so our sins are removed by the blood and Spirit of Jesus Christ; but especially that by this divine pledge and sign he may assure us, that we are spiritually cleansed from our sins as really, as we are externally washed with water.

The Westminster Larger Catechism also gets at the same concept:

Quote:

Question 167: How is our Baptism to be improved by us?

Answer: The needful but much neglected duty of improving our Baptism, is to be performed by us all our life long, especially in the time of temptation, and when we are present at the administration of it to others; by serious and thankful consideration of the nature of it, and of the ends for which Christ instituted it, the privileges and benefits conferred and sealed thereby, and our solemn vow made therein; by being humbled for our sinful defilement, our falling short of, and walking contrary to, the grace of baptism, and our engagements; by growing up to assurance of pardon of sin, and of all other blessings sealed to us in that sacrament; by drawing strength from the death and resurrection of Christ, into whom we are baptized, for the mortifying of sin, and quickening of grace; and by endeavoring to live by faith, to have our conversation in holiness and righteousness, as those that have therein given up their names to Christ; and to walk in brotherly love, as being baptized by the same Spirit into one body.

Chris · #4 (**permalink**) 01-31-2007, 10:12 AM

Quote:

I really do not see how one can look to one's baptism for assurance of salvation.

Put me squarely in the 'that's a good thing' category. I probably disagree with some - maybe all - here, but looking to ANY past action as evidence of a current state is a bad idea, IMO.

Blueridge Believer · #5 (**permalink**) 01-31-2007, 10:35 AM

I was baptized in a warm water lake in Iceland during snow so hard that you couldn't see me or the preacher in the pictures that were taken. It was an experience for sure, but I draw no assurance of salvation whatsoever from it.
My hope is built on nothing less
than Jesus' blood and righteousness
I dare not trust the sweetest frame
but wholly lean on Jesus' name

On Christ the solid Rock I stand
All other ground is sinking sand

govols · #6 (**permalink**) 01-31-2007, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueridge reformer

My hope is built on nothing less
than Jesus' blood and righteousness
I dare not trust the sweetest frame
but wholly lean on Jesus' name

On Christ the solid Rock I stand
All other ground is sinking sand

You ever thought about putting those words to music?

Herald · #7 (**permalink**) 01-31-2007, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueridge reformer

I was baptized in a warm water lake in Iceland during snow so hard that you couldn't see me or the preacher in the pictures that were taken. It was an experience for sure, but I draw no assurance of salvation whatsoever from it.
My hope is built on nothing less
than Jesus' blood and righteousness
I dare not trust the sweetest frame
but wholly lean on Jesus' name

On Christ the solid Rock I stand
All other ground is sinking sand

Amen and Amen brother James.

Me Died Blue · #8 (**permalink**) 01-31-2007, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueridge reformer

My hope is built on nothing less
than Jesus' blood and righteousness
I dare not trust the sweetest frame
but wholly lean on Jesus' name

On Christ the solid Rock I stand
All other ground is sinking sand

Indeed - and one purpose of baptism is to assure us that if we truly look to Christ in faith, His blood has cleansed us from our sin just as surely as the water washed our bodies.

Robert Truelove · #9 (**permalink**) 01-31-2007, 06:57 PM

As you can see from the responses thus far, the answer to your question is 'Yes' and 'No'.

Yes baptism is sacramentally an assurance of salvation in that it is sacramentally united with the thing itself, though it itself it not that thing.

Sophistry? Not at all. For the scriptures teach us that those who have been baptized have 'put on Christ', and have 'washed away their sins', and 'have died and risen in Christ', are 'one with his body'. The same scriptures teach us that justification is by faith alone.

The one does no violence to the other. When one understands that baptism is sacramentally connected to the reality but not the reality itself, one can see both sides of the coin. When you consider your baptism, in faith, believing the gospel, in view is your sin being washed away and your life being made new in Christ. In such a way baptism is indeed an assurance of your salvation.

If you look merely to the words of the preacher and the application of water, then you miss the point and your baptism avails little. This is true not only when you receive baptism, but every time you reflect upon it.

turmeric · #10 (**permalink**) 01-31-2007, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prespastor

As you can see from the responses thus far, the answer to your question is 'Yes' and 'No'.

Yes baptism is sacramentally an assurance of salvation in that it is sacramentally united with the thing itself, though it itself it not that thing.

Can someone unpack this? I either ain't smart enough or I don't have enough faith.

Quote:

For the scriptures teach us that those who have been baptized have 'put on Christ', and have 'washed away their sins', and 'have died and risen in Christ', are 'one with his body'. The same scriptures teach us that justification is by faith alone.

The one does no violence to the other. When one understands that baptism is sacramentally connected to the reality but not the reality itself, one can see both sides of the coin. When you consider your baptism, in faith, believing the gospel, in view is your sin being washed away and your life being made new in Christ. In such a way baptism is indeed an assurance of your salvation.

How can I believe this and not be a credo-baptist? I can't possibly have had instrumental faith for any of those bolded things to have happened as an infant. I can see my folks believing that I will be saved, that God has promised to be my God too, but I can't possibly have died and risen with Christ at that age.

armourbearer · #11 (**permalink**) 01-31-2007, 09:21 PM

Meg, these are the wonders of the everlasting covenant. We apprehend them at a particular point in time, but the truths themselves are everlasting. According to the election of grace your baptism meant all that it signifies even when you could not grasp the significance yourself. This is the essential idea of the sacraments: to teach us the objective certainty of these things from generation to generation, and that God cannot deny Himself or His purpose of grace.

turmeric · #12 (**permalink**) 01-31-2007, 09:35 PM

But it's not certain. A person who is baptized might not actually come to faith. This is certainly as true for the Baptists as the Presbyterians, regardless of their attempt to screen the candidates. Now the Presby's will say, if you never come to faith, your baptism doesn't mean anything. So how does that prove the certainty of anything, especially since it's based on what I do later?

armourbearer · #13 (**permalink**) 01-31-2007, 09:53 PM

It is all by faith, as noted above was Calvin's rule in relation to sacraments. From the standpoint of faith you now see God's covenant promises realised, so baptism means all that it was intended to mean.

I found this illustration helpful once. Consider an Israelite living in the promised land. He personally did not come out of Egypt, go through the Red Sea, receive the law at Sinai, cross the Jordan, and enter the promised land. He was born into it. Yet because his being in the promised land depended upon these great redemptive events, he could say that he did come out of Egypt, cross the Red Sea etc., as positively as his forefathers. See Ps. 66:6, "He turned the sea into dry land: THEY went through the flood on foot: there did WE rejoice in him." Blessings!

lv1nothr · #14 (**permalink**) 01-31-2007, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

I found this illustration helpful once. Consider an Israelite living in the promised land. He personally did not come out of Egypt, go through the Red Sea, receive the law at Sinai, cross the Jordan, and enter the promised land. He was born into it. Yet because his being in the promised land depended upon these great redemptive events, he could say that he did come out of Egypt, cross the Red Sea etc., as positively as his forefathers. See Ps. 66:6, "He turned the sea into dry land: THEY went through the flood on foot: there did WE rejoice in him." Blessings!

I love the illustration! Thank you!

Theoretical · #15 (**permalink**) 02-01-2007, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turmeric

But it's not certain. A person who is baptized might not actually come to faith. This is certainly as true for the Baptists as the Presbyterians, regardless of their attempt to screen the candidates. Now the Presby's will say, if you never come to faith, your baptism doesn't mean anything. So how does that prove the certainty of anything, especially since it's based on what I do later?

Actually, that's not quite the case, from what I've read. One's baptism [gallery, correct me if I'm wrong] actually becomes a curse against the non-believer for one's rejection of the Gospel.

Chris · #16 (**permalink**) 02-01-2007, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theoretical

Actually, that's not quite the case, from what I've read. One's baptism [gallery, correct me if I'm wrong] actually becomes a curse against the non-believer for one's rejection of the Gospel.

That would be my understanding. Any hope for salvation that is directed towards or springs forth from anything in the world other than Christ's death, burial, and resurrection is just heaping condemnation upon yourself.

javacodeman · #17 (**permalink**) 02-01-2007, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by govols

You ever thought about putting those words to music?

Amen squared.

Meg,

Can you tell more about what prompted your question? Speculation would suggest that you are doubting your salvation, doubting what you held as assurance of your salvation, or in a conversation with someone else who could be on either side of the issue. With all of the possibilities as to the motivation for your post, I'll simply leave with these quotes:

Quote:

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Quote:

Matthew 7:15-23
A Tree and Its Fruit
15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.

18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.

19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Quote:

Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

turmeric · #18 (**permalink**) 02-01-2007, 08:43 PM

I'm not doubting my salvation, what prompted this was a post where Luther was basically saying to the devil "Yes, but I have been baptized." in response to his accusations.

I think I've come to a paedo understanding of baptism, but I'd be likely, under the above circumstances, to say "Yes, but Jesus died on the Cross..." or "Yes, but Jesus lived the life I should have lived..."

Not saying for a second that the other paedos don't believe the above, I've learned a lot of that from them. I just don't understand the Luther quote. It sounds like something a Catholic would say.

javacodeman · #19 (**permalink**) 02-01-2007, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turmeric

I'm not doubting my salvation, what prompted this was a post where Luther was basically saying to the devil "Yes, but I have been baptized." in response to his accusations.

I think I've come to a paedo understanding of baptism, but I'd be likely, under the above circumstances, to say "Yes, but Jesus died on the Cross..." or "Yes, but Jesus lived the life I should have lived..."

Not saying for a second that the other paedos don't believe the above, I've learned a lot of that from them. I just don't understand the Luther quote. It sounds like something a Catholic would say.

Fair enough. I have to agree with you as to how I would have answered.

turmeric · #20 (**permalink**) 02-03-2007, 07:25 PM

Okay, I read the Covenant blog, which is written to address credos and Arminians, among others, and maybe that's what I needed. Covenant Theology 101. Let's see if I've got it right this time...

So if I were back in ancient Israel, and I got terrified because tomorrow we had to fight the Midianites, I could say; "Yes, but my husband is circumcised, and so are my sons. God has made a covenant with us. We are under His protection."

So Luther can say to the devil; "Yes, I'm a rotten sinner like anyone else, but I have been baptized; I belong to the Church where God has revealed His gracious intent to save sinners, you can't pull that one on me!"

Maybe...