Should we Baptize previously "Baptized" Roman Catholics who want to join the local church?

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Member Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA

Deo Vindice

Was Luther, Calvin, Knox, Zwingli, and so on rebaptized? No

__________________
Gil Garcia
Rehoboth Reformed Church (RCUS)
La Habra, CA

"Ignorance of this distinction between Law and Gospel is one of the principal sources of the abuses which corrupted and still corrupt Christianity." - Calvin's successor


"By the words of the law man is admonished and taught, not what he can do, but what he ought to do. How is it that you theologians are twice as stupid as schoolboys, in that as soon as you get hold of a single imperative verb you infer an indicative meaning...?"
-Martin Luther, The Bondage of the Will

I realize there is a lot of theological underpinning of this doctrine.

My understanding of the PCA on this is that like the Lord's Supper, in order to recognize communion one would need to be a member of a church "where this Gospel is preached," which would not include churches which officially reject justification by faith (in Christ's righteousness) alone because that is, essentially, the Gospel.

No.

__________________
Donald Jacobs
Roanoke VA.
Covenant Reformed Episcopal Church.

Cum vero infirmor tunc potens sum.

In RC doctrine baptism is essential for salvation. Hence up until recently when an RC baby was dying, calling the priest to administer baptism took priority over calling a doctor. RCs believe this washes away original sin and although does not guarantee salvation, not being baptised positively excludes any hope of salvation. It is also a sign that he belongs to the "one true church". Baptism therefore has a completely different meaning and significance for the RC than it does to the reformed. We do not recognise baptismal regeneration nor would we recognise Mormon, JW or any cult baptism.

If anyone is converted, RC or otherwise, and has therefore really joined the one true church -the church invisible-then they should undergo Christian baptism. (The mode is a seperate issue)

__________________
Stuart
Elder, Lambeg Baptist, Northern Ireland, UK

In Him the fulness of the Godhead dwells in bodily form and in Him you are complete (Col 2.9-10)

The Christian is a person who makes it easy for others to believe in God. (RM M'Cheyne)

The answer might be a "Yes" because of Vatican II. I need to check on that!

No need to ask a Baptist this question. I think this is a strictly for Presbyterian question.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Reformed Baptist
Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
Visit my BLOG Theology for the Rest of Us

Links and Downloads Manager - Ecclesiology - The Reformed Churches and Roman Catholic Baptism: An Anthology of Principle Texts - The PuritanBoard

__________________
Andrew

If it is a seriously performed baptism with water in the name of the Triune God, why should it matter that the person performing the sacrament is an heretic? For those answering "yes," why? Is Baptism into the name of our Savior, or into the authority of his followers?

Why should/must the symbolic washing be repeated? After all, regeneration is a unique event.

__________________
Mr. P. C. Flanagan, Esq.
Grace Orthodox Presbyterian
Both I and the church of Vienna, VA

Historical precedents, while interesting, are not binding. By the by, not all reformers agreed on this question; Viret disagreed (for one). Also, it was a huge inconsistency to recognize apostate churches' baptisms while severely condemning their practice of the Lord's Table.

The question would be: is the RC part of the visible church? Both sacraments are given to the visible church, and therefore, anyone who administers a "sacrament" in a synagogue of satan is not administering a sacrament, he's administering the table of demons.

It would be impossible to make a blanket statement about all RC churches, since not all are the same. Be that as it may, Christ has given the sacraments to the visible church.

Cheers,

__________________
Adam B., Wine Country, California, PCA

"I fear not to hold with Junius, de Politia Mosis cap. 6, that he who was punishable by death under that Judicial law, is punishable by death still; and he who was not punished by death then, is not to be punished by death now."

Don't forget us Dutch Reformed. We don't re-baptize RCs, and I don't think we should.

The RCC Baptism, for all it faults, is still a Triune Baptism.

From The Belgic Confession:

__________________
Steve Butts - Former SBC-er
Three Forms of Unity - Bradenton CRCNA - Bradenton, Florida
(A conservative member in a conservative congregation)

"Turning away to false Theology is equal to turning away to false gods" — Francis Schaeffer (Death in the City)

AMEN BRO! I don't think Luther or Calvin were re-baptised! Their RCC baptisms were good enough for them. Besides, if you are re-baptized aren't you putting too much emphasis on baptism?

__________________
Kevin - PCA - Mississippi

"What, for some, is sin, others do to the glory of God. And the good Dr. Pentecost's remarks notwithstanding, I intend to go home tonight and smoke a cigar to the glory of God. It is a kind of incense drifting to Heaven." - Charles Spurgeon

"Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!" - 2 Corinthians 9:15

I was a Catholic for 30 years, and I dont know how we can even compare reformed Paedobaptism with a Catholic Baptism. It may be a "Triune Baptism" but it is completely different in its meaning. I supposedly entered the church of Christ and was cleansed of all my original sin at my baptism.

So my is that this is far from Christian baptism and we should rebaptise Roman Catholics.
Catholics are not Christian in any form or way, there sacraments are supersticious heresy and I would not regard them as any more truthful than any mormon ceromony.

__________________
Shane
Sydenham Baptist
Port Elizabeth, South Africa

"The most damnable and pernicious heresy that has ever plagued the mind of man was the idea that somehow he could make himself good enough to deserve to live with an all Holy God" - Martin Luther

I also would go with no.

__________________
Timothy Johnson
First United Presbyterian of Moline
PCUSA (Yea, I know)
Theology/Philosophy Sunday School Teacher
Davenport, IA

I was going to say no (based on historical evidence re: Calvin et al) but if Shane's post is accurate, I'm swayed somewhat.

__________________
Kevin, husband of a truly angelic woman, and father to ten.
Zion United Reformed Church of Sheffield
Ontario, Canada

Read the link link:

The Tri-lemma; OR, DEATH BY THREE HORNS.

THE PRESBYTERIAN GENERAL ASSEMBLY NOT ABLE TO DECIDE THIS QUESTION:

"IS BAPTISM IN THE ROMISH CHURCH VALID?"

AFFIRMATIVELY OR NEGATIVELY WITHOUT UNBAPTIZING AND UNCHURCHING THE WHOLE PROTESTANT WORLD!

NO PROTESTANT CAN DECIDE IT, AND SAVE HIS BIBLE AND HIS BAPTISM

BY J. R. GRAVES,

Protestant Tri-Lemma

__________________
* Ralph Wilms (7-10-1974)
* Church : Christengemeente Roermond (The Netherlands)
* 1729 Goat Yard Declaration of Faith & 1646 Baptist Confession of faith

"To our mind, either everything or nothing must be held in subjection to the will and providence of God. Even the wickedness of ungodly men is restricted by predestination, so that the wrath of man shall praise God, and the remainder of wrath He will restrain." - GILBERT BEEBE (1800-1881)

It seems to me we have defined the issue:

1) Is a baptism effective only if it is done by a "true church"?

2) If so, do we define a "true church" by its doctrine of the Trinity alone or does it require also that the church hold to the Gospel of Salvation?

3) Do any other doctrines from Scripture also need to apply?

You need to ask your self, is the RCC still a true church ?
If you think so, than ofcourse is there baptism valid, but if not so, how can you see this as a valid baptism, only because that's done in name of the Trinity ?

Right. The question comes into focus here... If the Roman Church officially rejects justification by Christ's righteousness alone (the Gospel), and the ultimate authority of Scripture (sola Scriptura) but does hold to a biblical doctrine of the Trinity and other important biblical doctrines, can baptism have God's unction to initiate children into the covenant community in communion with the church universal? This is a deep question, one that needs to be handled carefully.

__________________
Scott
PCA
North Carolina


"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23

Nope! Trinitarian Baptism is Valid Baptism!

__________________
Wayne Whitmer
Member, Rio Rancho OPC
Albuquerque, NM

Is it the Trinitarian formula alone?

Not sure why it would be a Preby question...but I would say yes, they should be baptized. Which would not be a re-baptism per se, but a first, actual, biblical baptism.

__________________
Geoff/Reformed Baptist
Acworth, GA
John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


"Show me your war face."

On the Paedo side I think it primarily is. Using that formula you would re-baptize Mormons, JWs, etc. But not RCs, Seventh Day Adventist, Armstrongites, etc.

But using that formula alone wouldn't we re-baptize Oneness-Pentecostals etc?

On the Credo side, some tend to re-baptize so many because for them it's tied into a valid confession of faith.

With regard to the "true church" element, would we require a person who was baptized as an infant in Protestant church by a known apostate to be re-baptized? I should hope not. We do not want to replay the Donatist Controversy.

Of course, there was much disagreement on this question in the 19th century presbyterian church, with I believe Hodge and Thornwell going toe-to-toe over the issue (Hodge saying "no"; Thornwell "yes").

I was reading the text of a sermon by Ligon Duncan on baptism, and he said that the Session at First Pres Jackson does not require re-baptism for an RC joining, unless the person joining has a major issue over his baptism (the person is deeply convicted that the baptism was not valid). While this isn't a perfect solution to the issue, it does seem to be a via media.


A (deliberately) non-Trinitarian baptism is not the same thing as a RCC baptism. So if a oneness Pentecostal or Mormon converted, he or she would need to be baptized (not really "re", since the first was not a Christian baptism).

__________________
Tim Phillips
Pastor, Midlane Park Presbyterian Church (ARP)
Louisville, KY
Husband of Scottish Lass
My Blog: Gairney Bridge
My Facebook/My Avatar

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

"Wherever the gospel is preached, it is as if God Himself came into the midst of us." ~ John Calvin

I'll let John Calvin answer that:

It seems the issue for the Presbyterian wil be a trinitarian baptism by which will be accepted a Romish baptism, an amazing thing in my eyes and diminishes in my estimation that strong polemic of John Gill on the matter which I before felt was a little rough, and the Baptist position which will recognize as only true baptism as a baptism for disciples alone (using Fred Malone's phrase to prevent the silly wrangling of words over 'believer's baptism).

This has been an enlightening topic for me.

Spot on. I'll go with Calvin on this one.

To the OP's question, I say nay.

__________________
Bryan Peters
Providence Reformed Church (URCNA)
Des Moines, Iowa

Doctrinal truth should be preached always, openly, without compromise, and never dissembled or concealed. There is no offence in it; it is the staff of uprightness.
~Martin Luther~

I probably do not know enough to debate this, but can we really say it is OK simply because it is Trinitrian? When the central meaning of the "sacrament" is competely wrong?

I hope I am alowed to post this to clear up what Catholic baptism means?
This is what the Catholic Chatecism says regarding baptism.

-------------------------------------
"1214 This sacrament is called Baptism, after the central rite by which it is carried out: to baptize (Greek baptizein) means to "plunge" or "immerse"; the "plunge" into the water symbolizes the catechumen's burial into Christ's death, from which he rises up by resurrection with him, as "a new creature."6

1215 This sacrament is also called "the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit," for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."7

1216 "This bath is called enlightenment, because those who receive this [catechetical] instruction are enlightened in their understanding
. . . ."8 Having received in Baptism the Word, "the true light that enlightens every man," the person baptized has been "enlightened," he becomes a "son of light," indeed, he becomes "light" himself:9

Baptism is God's most beautiful and magnificent gift....We call it gift, grace, anointing, enlightenment, garment of immortality, bath of rebirth, seal, and most precious gift. It is called gift because it is conferred on those who bring nothing of their own; grace since it is given even to the guilty; Baptism because sin is buried in the water; anointing for it is priestly and royal as are those who are anointed; enlightenment because it radiates light; clothing since it veils our shame; bath because it washes; and seal as it is our guard and the sign of God's Lordship"
--------------------------------

I was rebaptised as a Christian as I regarded my baptism in the Catholic church as completely wrong in its meaning.
You see even if it was Trinitarian my first baptism was not a Christian Baptism.

It is completely heretical in its meaning. Maybe I am missing something but in my limited knowledge that is where I stand.

I will be away for a week but will be eager to read the rest of the discussion when I get back.