Originally Posted by Zadok

Oh dear me! It is our covenantal understanding, as well as other considerations, which bring us to the Credo position.

For those who are interested, you might like to listen to 3 messages by Dr. Peter Masters the current minister at Spurgeon's Metropolitan Tabernacle on the contrasts of the Covenants.

Message 1 - http://reformedbaptist.co.uk/PM%20Co...ecture%201.zip

Message 2 - http://reformedbaptist.co.uk/PM%20Co...ecture%202.zip

Message 3 - http://reformedbaptist.co.uk/PM%20Co...ecture%203.zip

These lectures also helpfully tackle the much disputed 1 Corinthians 7.14

Originally Posted by Blueridge Baptist

I went to a Presby bible study last tuesday night. They got thier brain wave machine out and tried to get me. Luckily I had tinfoil under my hat and I was able to escape unharmed. Other than that I had a good time.

Originally Posted by Seb

Congrats Michael.

Gee...wonder what kinda of debate this thread is about to slide into?

Originally Posted by BobVigneault

Holy mackerel Pergi, I charged 'back-sliding', you've escalated it to 'adultery'. We just need one more Baptist upstart to bring this up to 'murder'. Come on, who's going to be the one?

Originally Posted by BobVigneault

HEY!!!! I was talking to Ivan! You other guys stop listening in.

Why do the Dutch have such a long tradition of holding back on the water?

Originally Posted by DMcFadden

O the humanity of it all! You're murdering me! Don't go to the Dark Side, Luke.

The logic of covenant theology MAY lead some/many to infant baptism. However, a sober examination of the phenomena of scripture should be enough to convince one of the believers baptist position.

Originally Posted by mark

Baptists normally teach their children to sing "Jesus loves me." So, if they belong to Christ, why not baptize them?

Originally Posted by DMcFadden

The logic of covenant theology MAY lead some/many to infant baptism. However, a sober examination of the phenomena of scripture should be enough to convince one of the believers baptist position.

Originally Posted by North Jersey Baptist

TO ALL:

I USED to be a Baptist-in-Crisis. Please note the past tense. I am now quite at peace with credobaptism. I am an oak. I cannot be moved. Give it your best shot!

Originally Posted by crhoades

Even oaks topple over from time to time...You know...the bigger (more stubborn) they are...the harder the fall!

Originally Posted by Bladestunner316

How does the baptist position view John the Baptist who was saved in the womb?

I ask this question as a credo-baptist admittedly with friendliness towards the peado position.

Originally Posted by Coram Deo

I thought I would never hear myself say these words but I believe I have or am slipping into the Paedo-Baptist camp. Many of you thought that this might happen since I already became a Presbyterian in Polity and lately accepted Pouring as a mode for Baptism. I guess I was holding to my last visage of cradle faith, that of credobaptism. A sermon or two from our pastor and a few good articles from Dr. Scott Clark and extra study from internet articles have lead me down this path. Things that are really undeniable... I will try to summarize what I accept and see through Covenant Eyes....

Circumcision and Baptism are signs and seals of the Covenant of Grace which is the New Covenant which the Abrahamic Covenant was the New Covenant and not the Old Covenant.

The Old Covenant was indeed the Mosaic Covenant, Not the Abrahamic Covenant.

The Abrahamic Covenant IS the Covenant of Promise, the Covenant of Grace, An Everlasting Covenant, abet Foreseeing of the promise of Christ as we Look back to the promise of Christ.

The Mosaic Covenant was Types and Shadows (Ceremonial Aspects) that was to point us to Christ. It was all Typological, The Rituals, The Priesthood, The Kingship of David and were intended to be temporary, to be fulfilled by the reality: Christ. The Mosaic Covenant was also a republication of the Covenant of Works.

When the New Testament Speaks of the Old Covenant it is only referring to the Mosaic Covenant and not the Abrahamic Covenant.

When the New Testament Speaks of the New Covenant it puts it in the same category of Faithful Abraham and of the Abrahamic Covenant.

Dr. Scott Clark said it best with "Don't miss the fundamental identification of all New Covenant believers with Abraham. "It is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham." In other words, genetics means nothing -- never has-- ultimately. What matters is true faith, and specifically faith that inherits or receives the promise of justification sola gratia, sola fide, the same promise given to Abraham. Thus we are blessed "along with Abraham."

Does Abraham here appear as an "Old Covenant" figure? No. Keep going in Gal 3. In v. 10 Paul contrasts "those who rely on works of the law" with (v. 11) “The righteous shall live by faith.” How does the blessing of Abraham come to anyone? In v. 14, it is "in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham" comes to "the Gentiles....."

Here comes the clincher. In v. 15 Paul appeals to the way covenants were made in the ancient world. No one annuls a "man-made" covenant "or adds to it once it has been ratified." This is significant because "the promises were made to Abraham and to his seed. It does not say, “And to seeds,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your seed,” who is Christ." In other words, whoever has faith in Christ has the promise, because Christ is the promise. Abraham had faith in Christ. Abraham was a Christian. Abraham is not identified with Moses, who is typically identified with the law, rather he is identified with the gospel.

In v. 17 Paul makes the point even clearer. The Mosaic covenant, the Old Covenant, came 430 years after the promise to Abraham. It was a codicil to the covenant. It didn't change the fundamental character of the covenant of grace God made with Abraham and to his children. Why was the Mosaic, Old Covenant given? In v. 19 Paul says that it was given "because of transgressions," i.e., it was given as a schoolmaster to drive sinners to Christ. For the rest of the chapter he elaborates on how the Old Covenant was temporary and the covenant of grace is not. Indeed, he wrote a whole the better part of an entire chapter on this very theme in Gal 4. Those who think that the Old, Mosaic, Covenant is the "real thing" are looking in the wrong direction. There are two women, Hagar and Sarah, who represent (Gal 4:24-31) two covenants. Sarah (Abraham and Isaac) represents the covenant of grace and Hagar (and Ishmael) represent the Jerusalem from below.

Again, going back to Rom 4 just briefly, how does Paul speak of Abraham? He is the "father of all who believe" (4:11), both Jew and Gentile. Abraham was justified by faith and so are we. We are under the same promises, the same grace that he was. Thus our Lord said, "Abraham saw my day and rejoiced" (John 8:56).

Abraham was a member of the very same covenant of grace of which we are members. He was a member of the covenant of grace under a different, typological administration, but it was the same covenant of grace."



The New Covenant is build on better promises then the Old Covenant which was the Mosaic Covenant.

Circumcision was given to Abraham and his seed in Genesis 17:7 for reasons I might not fully understand... Circumcision was the sign of the covenant of grace which existed in the Abrahamic Covenant as the Internal and External Aspects of the Covenant of Grace. Unbelieving Jews still received the sign of the Covenant by having parents who were part of the Covenant.

The External and Internal Aspects of the Covenant of Grace is the same as the Visible and Invisible Aspects of the New Covenant which is the Covenant of Grace.

Accordingly the Promise has carried over with the same Promise in Acts 2:38, 39 which Peter says "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children."

Wait, that is the language of Genesis 17:7... The Promise is to you and to your children.

Baptism is a sign and seal of the Covenant of Grace in the New Covenant Epoch. Which even in Baptist circles are still given to unbelievers (It is unavoidable this side of glory) So the Visible Church is