Just wondering, were you a dispey before you were Reformed? What was it that brought you out of dispensationalism?



[Edited on 10-13-2006 by JM]

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Conscience may lash us, but it cannot replenish a languishing life. Conscience may be God's word and minister to you, telling you of your faults and your follies and your destitution. It may point out, but it will never supply you. Christ must give you new life. Hart has well expressed it: "He to the feeble and the faint, His mighty aid makes known; and when their languid life is spent, supplies it with His own." - J. K. Popham

I was saved in a dispy Baptist church. What brought me out was Romans 8,9 and 10 along with the book of Galatians. When I finally began to realize who the Israel of God was and the unity of Old testament saints in the same body with New testament believers the entire superstructure fell.

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James Farley
Husband of Melissa and father of Ann.
Members of Redeemer Church ARP, Blacksburg Va.
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I became dispy in high school but really didn't like the despair it gave. I didn't like the idea of being raptured and not getting to go toe-to-toe with the antichrist. Just seemed too easy. I had a quasi-liberal amillennial professor give a partial preterist reading of Matthew 24. That gave me an excuse to get out.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

I was a dispensationalist, but I had no idea what the term meant. Funny enough, after becoming Calvinistic, it was both John MacArthur's inconsistencies and the complex hermeneutical gymnastics and demands of the dispensational systematic that showed me the great flaws of dispensationalism as a system. As far as eschatology goes, I still am not cemented on what I AM, but I know what I'm NOT.

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Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

I was a hard-core dispy! I first starting having trouble with some glaring eschatological inconsistencies and how certain dispy authors kept changing their interpretations to fit current events. Then I read a book by Woodrow called "Great Prophecies of the Bible", and kept slapping myself upside the head.

I also remember being quite shocked reading the notes to the Geneva Bible on Daniel's prophecies - "You mean the church hasn't always believed that this was about THE ANTICHRIST (TM) and THE GREAT TRIBULATION (TM) ??!!!"

SO I dispensed with rapturism first. Then I fell under the influence of the Christian Reconstructionists. Some say I've never recovered. But the final straw, I think, was reading John Murray's "Christian Baptism", which pulled together a lot of previous reading and brought forth the light bulb moment when I realized I was officially no longer even a Reformed Baptist, let a lone a dispy.

Certain of my family members were concerned that I'd "miss the rapture" because I was "not looking for it". To which I replied "I WANT to be left behind!"

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Chad
He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved. (Psalms 15:5 KJV)

I was attending a Seventh Day Baptist church and I was reading my way through the Left Behind series. I was so excited that I was finally understanding Revelation and I was seeing future history as it would soon happen. I was watching the horizon because I new that anti-christ was out there somewhere. We back in high school I had bought 10 copies of Satan Is Alive and Well and gave them go my friends. I'm sure I read Late Great Planet Earth as well.

I asked some married friends of our in the SDB church what they thought of the Left Behind series. I didn't know there was any alternative view. They said, it's not in the scriptures. I was incredulous. This guy was the smartest man I ever met and he said that the rapture was not in the scriptures. I said, of course it is. I began to search for all those elements I was so familiar with - the stinger missiles, meteors, upc codes and I couldn't find them in scripture. I was SHOCKED.

Finally I read DeMar's eye opening masterpiece, Last Days Madness. I was finally able to relax knowing that the scriptures were intact. Dispensationalism is just plain bad hermeneutics.

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Bob Vigneault C.O.L, L.E., G.E, Dr.O.P., O.U.T.
The Heartbeat of Heaven (blog)
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I was once briefly a dispy. I was cured by God's grace through singing the Psalms.

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Andrew

I read Demar's last days madness myself here recently. Excellent book. I came out of hyper-dispensationalism and rabid KJV-onlyism. Studied under the great pope of Pensacola
Peter Ruckman. Google that dude if you want an eye opener.
Thank God for his grace is all I can say.

Me and some others used to joke about Demar writing 1 book, 11 titles. But on a serious note, he might well be the late 20th century, early 21st century champion in showing people that they can tell their kids "You have hope for you and your children. God hasn't given this world to Satan, contra the pessimillenialist."

Hello, my name is Kevin & I am a dispensationalist. I have been 'in recovery' now for 17 years.

Y'all are supposed to shout "we love you Kevin" now.

I also read the reconstructionist and that really put the nail in the cofin of my lingering dispism.

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Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB

Which hyper group were you with, Acts 9, 13, 15 or 28?

The Act's 2 group who taught faith and works salvation in the Old Testament and in the tribulation period. Works only salvation in the millennial reign. It all seems like a bad dream now.

Hey Jacob, now that I think of it, it was on your recommendation that I started reading DeMar. Thank you friend. I ordered several of his books so I could get the flavor. I owe you a beer.

Me too. I was big into Left Behind for a very short time...thankfully, God saved me out of that mess before I go too far in. :bigsmile:

Sadly, that was the atmosphere I was raised in, and I didn't think there was any other views out there. But then again, I thought the same thing about free will, and look what happened.

[Edited on 10-13-2006 by Devin]

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Devin Brian
1689er
Attending Trinity Baptist Church in Shreveport, LA.
Vivian, Louisiana, USA

"...If you are not firm in faith,you will not be firm at all." - Isaiah 7:9
"The fall of man is written in too legible characters not to be understood: Those that deny it, by their denying, prove it." - George Whitefield

I didn't know about anything else until I learned about the dreaded Replacement Theologians who have a big green eye in the middle of their foreheads and eat their young...whoops! I meant wet their young..sorry!

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Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

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I was heavily dispy for awhile. I got caught up in the Hal Lindsey trilogy / A Thief in the Night craze in the early 70's. I was sure things had gotten so bad by 1974 that that rapture was coming anytime. I had to warn everybody. They wouldn't listen, so I joined Campus Crusade where I got a lot of encouragement. Even though not all were dispy, a good many were.

I headed for the mission field in Africa. Those people would listen. They didn't.

I came back to the States and taught in Christian schools. I continued dispy and continued to be encouraged. Until one of my colleagues became interested in the Reformed understanding and kept telling me about. By that time, I was ready because I was beginning to see inconsistencies in the whole thing.



After studying the Confession and Catechisms and especially after working through G.I. Williamson's explanation of the various eschatological views, I started getting my head on straight.



One of the by-products of all this study was the realization that I understood the dispy's to be teaching that things would get so bad here that God would just have to rapture all of his people out in order to save them. I began to see from Scripture that this rapture wasn't going to happen until the return of Christ and that these dispy's were out of their tree.

:lightbulb:

When I finally began to understand the doctrine of the Perseverence of the Saints, it dawned on me that God's grace is sufficient for his people in all times. I found myself much more comforted that our God is so all-powerful as to preserve us than any comfort I had ever had from any hope that he would come and snatch us out at just the right time.

That's the short version.

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~Jay~
Husband of ENS, father of J II. | Indian Trail, NC
disabled - cancer
Communicant Member, Precentor | Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte, NC | Presbyterian Reformed Church

zzzzzz ...

I was dragged kicking and screaming out of dispensationalism over the course of several years.

Instrumental to my changed convictions were a year-long study of Romans 1 - 11, books by Sproul and Pink, and a lot of thinking and praying.

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Dan Martin
Pastor
Calvary Bible Church
Myrtle Beach, South Carolina

"You are required to believe, to preach, and to teach what the Bible says is true, not what you want the Bible to say is true." R. C. Sproul

Wow, I believe I've told this story before but I kind of enjoy telling it so here goes.

My family is a very Godly family that taught me that Jesus Christ is Lord and must always come first no matter what. We never had a lot but we had what we needed, in other words, I have seen God work in me and my famalies lives for years and years.

I was very much attracted to "end times" teachings and felt that God had gifted me in undersstanding prophecy in a "special" way. I was able to teach it to others including adults when I was a teen! I was so pleased to be used of God in this way.

When Left Behind came out I was so overjoyed because I dreamed of a project like this for years. Of course in my dreams it was I who wrote it, but at least it was out there and I could use it in my teachings of others. I devoured those books from cover to cover including the "teen" series.

I was an all star poster over at www.raptureready.com and when I found Johm MacArthur's books on Lordship salvation I couldn't wait to share them with other posters at RR. Sadly many of them hated that teaching. I was hurt, angry, and shocked. Why wasn't this accepted over there the way Left Behind was? I mean making Jesus Lord of your life and not Lord in name only just made sense to me. I kept trying to build the case until I was BANNED!

I couldn't believe this was happening. I tried and tried to get back in using different names but eventually they knew who I was because of my arguments for Lordship Salvation and banned me again and again. I decided I would have to find a new online community and I found the PURITAN BOARD! I was thrilled! These people took Lordship salvation seriously. I studied these confessions you had to subscribe to in order to be admitted as a member and LOVED THEM! I had never seen anything like this. I thought to myself that if Rapture Ready had something like this it would be such a better place.

I submitted to the confession and joined the puritan board! I was shocked to discover that drinking was applauded. I mean I never thought social drinking was a sin, but for people to come to a Christian site and discuss alcohol shocked me to no end. It still shocks my mom

Then I found Paul Manata. This guy was saying stuff like the Tribulation weas in the past. Here was someone I needed to set straight! Someone I could share all my Left Behind knowledge with and show him the error of his ways. Paul was patient with me and didn't argue. He simply asked me to find specific and CLEAR scriptures on my views and I went off to do it. I tried to post a few things and he remained calm and friendly and asked me to elaborate on the issues I made. I couldn't do it.

I began to read more and realized that pretrib-postrib, and midtrib were not the ONLY three end times views in the Church. I was shocked. I mean what's A-Mill? What's Preterism? Do "Christians" actually believe this stuff? Are there that many other views?

Then my church began to be exposed to me. I was happy that I had been called a "Preciever". It was my spiritual gift to interpret God's word in a way to lead the church and it's pastors. Since prophecy was now over, "precievers" took the place of prophets and I was one! I went from being excited about that to worried because I couldn't find it in the bible.

FINALLY (sorry this is so long)

Someone asked in one of our bible studies..

"If a child is dragged off in the tribulation and forced to take the mark of the beast, will he still go to Hell?"

Our pastors and other members were stumped.

Finally I stuck up my hand and answered saying....

"Do you think that there is anyone in Hell that God wanted in Heaven and God looks upon this person in Hell, stomps His foot and says "Oh man! I wanted him up here!"

Everyone looked at me as if I had spoken in another language. NO ONE had ever considered that.

As I left that evening my pastor gave me a subtle warning about bringing up that "Calvinist stuff". I left that day and never returned. I sought out a PCA church, found one in my area and the rest is history! Thanks to Jacob as he's helped me process my eschatology since then as well. (I never knew what the word eschatology even was before the puritan board either!)

I was as hard core Dispy as one can get-now I am a postmill orthodox preterist! Praise God.

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Adam - Pennsylvania - Baptist

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I have always been reformed soteriologically and traditionally dispensational in the sense that I believed that there was a distinction between the Church and Israel.

I have never been caught up in the end times madness and have consistently been turned off by the "Left Behind" series. How about the bumper sticker: "In case of rapture, car will be unmanned"...silly. Do I believe that we live in a different world than our parents, that it is more flagrantly evil...yes, in certain circumstances that is difficult to argue against. However, I'm sure Sodom, Gomorrah, Tyre etc. were fairly nasty in their own right

Over the last year or so my beliefs in this area have been challenged. I've begun to study eschatology but have wearied. Aside from defining terms and watching/listening to each camp build straw men, I've gained nothing but skepticism for both sides...mainly the dispy side. I realize my lack of diligence for the subject and pray that the Lord would renew my strength.

So for now, I'm panmillenial. I do think there is one thing we can all agree on..."Come Lord Jesus, come quickly!" Amen.

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Burt Frank II
Melonie Park Church
Lubbock, TX

Veritas Vos Liberabit

"In all your studies, you must be careful that they are not for your amusement, but for the service of the church of Christ. Those who seek in scholarship nothing more than an honored occupation with which to beguile the tedium of idleness I would compare with those who pass their lives looking at paintings" -John Calvin

Great story Adam!

Fortunately, we don't have to figure everything out right now. As for your last statement, I agree heartily! In my earlier post on this thread, I was trying to score some humor points.

What frosted Dispensationalism for me was my mom, who is a rabid post-trib Dispy. (Hey, at least she's post-trib!) She talks about Israel and the coming tribulation obsessively. She kept talking about the sacrifices being reisntated in the millennial kingdom until I almost literally lost my lunch one day. I just knew that was wrong but was afraid to give up dispensationalism.

Long story short, through various circumstances, God made me come to grips with the perfectionism I had been taught,(there's your no-lordship stuff, Adam.) rather than dealing with eschatology right away. When the perfectionism had been sufficiently deconstructed, the eschatology began to fall into place because I was freed of a legalistic superstitious approach to theology.

I was always a dispy, but "this generation" was always unsettling for me. I read Matthew Henry's commentary on Matthew 24 and the system just crumbled.

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~Keon Garraway~ Brooklyn, NY Member of Franklin Square OPC

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Pslam 71:20 [Thou], which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

I was lucky. I didn't have the baggage of a dispy church background to come out of. I wasn't raised in Church. I became a Christian while in the US Navy. I was introduced to Clarence Larkin's Dispensational Truth through a friend on the USS Forrestal. When I read Larkins understanding that the Church wasn't in the Old Testament I trashed that man made doctrine.

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R. Martin Snyder
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I have a commentary on Exodus by Ruckman. It is mainly a commentary on what he is against instead of what the book is about. His manuscript stuff is so bogus. He has to know he is lying and deceiving others. And I am a Textus, Majority guy.

I came to know the Lord after reading The Late Great Planet Earth. My church was a short distance from The Friends of Israel - so I got to hear that whole crew quite abit. I eventually became an elder in the church and taught Sunday School.
One of the members wanted to make his life count more for God and decided to go to Philadelphia College of the Bible. It was there that he saw that there weren't really any answers to those nagging questions (up to that point you can always believe that even if your pastor doesn't have the answers, the professors do). He told me that the usual response to a difficult question is stir up ridicule. "You're not one of those..." It counts as an answer for the younger students (he was in his 30's at the time), but it ticked him off good.
He decided to start asking me his questions. I had the silly idea that, as an elder, I should have answers that I understood and believed to be true. Once you start asking questions of dispensationalism, it is pretty certain your dispensational days are numbered.

The issue that tore it apart for me was the two people of God doctrine. The first rip in the seam came when I read somewhere that Dispensationalists believed that Christians had a heavenly "heaven" and the Jews had an earthly "heaven". (It sounds vaguely anti-semitic, but I digress) Since it came from a critic, I thought for sure it was a distortion. I asked my pastor and he said "I believe they (redeemed Jews and Christians) have distinct eternal experiences". I knew him well enough to know that meant "yes it is true, but I know that is not the answer you want". From that point on I just paid attention in my regular Bible reading to any reference to the Church's relationship to Israel.
It took a couple of years before I settled the question(meaning it was a metaphysical certitude) but the doubts were instantaneous. It came down to a core of passages that I kept coming back to: Eph 2:11-22; Galatians 4:28 oh yeah and 3:29(which is just so much fun to go around with a disp. on because he has to say it is a reference to the "spiritual" seed of Abraham and I get to say I prefer to read the text literally and not spiritualize it) Romans 11:16-21; Heb 3:1-6 (The house that Jesus is over is the house that Moses was caretaker of) Heb 11:40 (in what way do we complete them); while we're at it the whole book of Hebrews pretty much. Then there was 1Peter 2:9 telling Christians that Exo 19:6 is all about them and there's John opening up the book of Revelation (1:4) doing the same thing and then the creatures and elders go on to sing it in Rev 5:10. And so on and so on. I think asking myself "How do the writers of the NT understand those OT prophecies?"
Then I spent the next 2 years (and at times like this continue) banging my head against the wall, asking "How could I miss this?".
Well, once you don't need to keep 'em separated (Israel and the Christians) then you don't need a pre-trib rapture. What's interesting is that during all this time I was not reading one book on the subject (except to go back to my disp. library) - The Bible just suddenly seemed very clear on the subject.
I haven't really latched onto a particular eschatological view; I listen intently to any intelligent conversation on the subject. I held onto a historic premil for a little bit, but that is giving way to amil. I think my conception of the eternal state is much more corporeal (there seems to be a few bits of gnosticism that have found a home is disp. camps) and so I see the OT "kingdom" passages as being fulfilled at that time. The kingdom is inaugurated now awaiting its fullest expression at the return of Christ. I like Vern Poythress' comment that he considers himself a really optimistic premillenialist -- it's so good it goes on forever.(He is amil).
The best part of the whole transistion, apart from a better understanding of God's word is that I got to teach adult Sunday School from a reformed, albeit historical premil, perspective in a dispensational church for about 18 months because we had never bothered to codify our dispensational beliefs beyond the merely premillenial.

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Greg Bednarchik
Sovereign Grace Church
(part of Sovereign Grace Ministries)
Cherry Hill NJ

I am not sure if I could have been classified as a dispensationalist. For a long time the only thing I knew about dispensationalism was the rapture. I began to learn more about what it was when I went off to college. I would get frustrated because the way some Scriptures were explained did not make since to me. I would always wonder why other people could get it but I could't. Then when I heard the interpretation of Peter's pentecost sermon, I was floored. My knowledge of Scripture was still limited but when Peter said "This is that," I believed it.

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Joshua Parker
Christ the King (PCA)
Foedus Theologus - My Blog
MDiv. Student at Whitefield
Cambridge, MA
"Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over these, but they will be priests of God and the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years." - Revelation 20:6

Josh, you have summed up exactly the journey I have taken. I was a flag waving dispensationalist, but had no idea exactly what that meant. When I became a Calvinist, I began to ask hard questions. John MacArthur, one of my heroes, was a teacher that I looked to for answers. I found none that satisified and began to question the whole dispensational system. It was about two years ago that my dispensational view of eschatology fell. It was one of the last dominos to tumble. As of this date, the only eschatological fact I will take a bullet for is His visible second coming. My eschatology is nebulus right now.

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Bill Brown
Elder
Reformed Baptist
Maryland

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Now, I have heard it said by some C.T.'s that I am still a dispensationalist because I do not accept paedobaptism. How in the world they come up with that rationale befuddles me.

You're a Baptist. What were Baptists before there was Dispensationalism?

They were Baptists. For those that were confessional (1689 LBC), they were similar in many ways to Presbyterians, save for baptism and ecclesiastical polity. Can anyone else clarify what "camp" Baptists were in prior the post-Darby period?

I became a Christian when I was 17 in 1999. I attended an Evangelical Free Church and the youth pastor there was talking about the Left Behind Series and so I decided to start to read those. I read the first two and so I guess I believed that, although that wasn't necessarily dispensationalism in the full out sense. So I never really believed in the different dispensations and stuff like that, just the pre-tribulation rapture and probably the premillenial view. In college, I became a Calvinist and studied eschatology further. I studied Theonomy for awhile and postmillenialism, but found that was wrong. Finally, I settled on amillenialism after a presbyterian explained it to me and I studied it further.

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Rev. Andrew J. Barnes
Husband of Dena
Father of Oliver
Master of Bruce
Pastor of Tchula Presbyterian Church

What can I say, I like blogs!

This would indicate that Baptists "were" post-mil:

http://www.baptiststandard.com/1999/.../endtimes.html

Take it for what it's worth.

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Ivan R. Schoen, B.A., M.A., M.L.I.S.
Pastor of Maranatha Baptist Church (SBC)
Poplar Grove, IL, USA
http://maranatha-sbc.org

I was of the Calvary Chapel ilk back in 1993

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Scott Bushey
Husband to Tina, father to Nicole, Danielle and Zoe
Member First Presbyterian Church of Margate PCA

This is exactly where I stand right now. I have been settled with Calvinism since 94' but I struggle with eschatology.

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Allen
Memorial Baptist Church
Pasadena Texas

Was a dispensationalist and an Old Landmarkist. I understood the systems pretty well, even so, they were complex and confusing systems to square with the plain message of the Holy Scriptures.

How I left it was fairly simple. Both of those systems just didn't square with the plain simple verbiage of the Scriptures. Letting the Scriptures speak for themselves was alot easier in my mind than trying to force it into these two systems of doctrine.

All that said, it was easier leaving Old Landmarkism than it was dispensationalism.

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Donald Jacobs
Roanoke VA.
Covenant Reformed Episcopal Church.

Cum vero infirmor tunc potens sum.

I was raised in the Assemblies of God so I was a dispy from childhood. I have vivd memories of a visiting lecturer stretching this huge chart of the endtiems across the front of the church.

It was actually a crazy Calvinist bookstore manager that not only exposed me to the reformed faith but also that there was something out there besides Dispensensationalism

I am now decidedly Amillenial.

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Steven Bittle
Postulant
St. Michael's Church
Reformed Episcopal Church
OKC, OK

"Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum!"

I was a dispy only because that was all that was ever taught to me. I never even knew there was any other view out there as a child. I am now a partial preterist.

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Joseph Botwinick, Band Director
Second Baptist Church, Jacksonville, Arkansas, Southern Baptist Convention
Sherwood, Arkansas
Romans 7:14-25
http://botwinick.wordpress.com/

The year was 1988, and I was 11 years old. My family just got several thousand copies of "88 reasons why the rapture could be in 1988" by Edgar Whisenant, for distribution. I remember so vividly my grandmother reading me that book of glorious phophetic insight, and being sacred to death. The rapture was set....sometime on Sept.11-13 Jesus would split the Eastern sky.

I can remember being in school those days and not doing my school work. I figured why bother? Jesus would be back before 3rd period. Of course here we are in 2007. When I asked my grandmother why we were still here all the response I got was "well no man knows the hour!" Well thats convienant! Screw with a kids head, and then tell them you shouldnt have been guessing to begin with. Needless to say, Edgar released yet another book in 1989, and, thats right.....my grandmother bought it hook, line, and sinker again. But not me...not this time. As the old saying goes " you can shear a sheep many times, but you can skin him only once."

I was a professing atheist by the age of 19 due in large part to these absurdities that are rampent in Pentecostal churches. Alos it was because when I read the Bible I saw a different God than the one presented in my Assemblies of God church. I remeber asking in Sunday School if Judas was born a "mark", and the people told me I was on thin ice. They would say I was reading things into the text. It wasnt to much longer and I apostisized.

After a long a stint in "apostasy land" God brought me back into His fold. I returned to the same church for a short period. After a falling out over Hebrews 6:4 I vowed never to return. I didnt know what Reformed Theology was at the time, but I knew what I was reading in Scripture. Anyway, I am ranting.

By God's Grace I have seen the falsehoods of Distortionationalism...I mean Dispensationalism. In fact I "hate" Dispensationalism, but not Dispensationalist. So to answer the orignal question of the post....Yes, I use to be a Dispy by default. It took 26 years to find out there is something else out there, and of course that would be Postmillenialism/Partail Preterist.

Next up for me is finding out if I am Paedo or credo.

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B.J. Edenfield
Member of Independent Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Savannah, Ga.
"Captain, my religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time for my death. I do not concern myself about that, but to be always ready, no matter when it may overtake me. That is the way all men should live, and then all would be equally brave"- Stonewall Jackson

Sounds kind of like Camping's 1994. .....Oh wait.... He's not dispey.