As many of you know, our family left a dispensational church 2+ years ago because I was required to sign a church covenant which basically said that I agreed with the teachings of the church. I couldn't do it with a clear conscience, so we left.

The only church my wife (since her salvation) and kids have ever known is the church that we left. My wife has asked me to help her (and the kids) better understand the differences between what I believe and the dispensational teachings of the church we left.

I'm just starting to organize my thoughts to figure out the best way to explain it to them. There are many things that I'd eventually like to teach them. For starters, I'd like to "combat" the idea that dispensationalism is the orthodox position. My wife and kids aren't into reading theology books, so the impression they get, based on the number of local churches that subscribe to dispensationalism, is that dispensationalism is the most widely held position, both now and historically. I'd like to show the historical context of dispensationalism.

On the way to work, I jotted down a little outline of things I'd like to cover regarding the historical context of dispensationalism. I was wondering if anybody could recommend any resources that would summarize the following things that I'd like to discuss:

[b:4754d8f632]Historical Context[/b:4754d8f632]
[b:4754d8f632]A.[/b:4754d8f632] What is dispensationalism?
[b:4754d8f632]B.[/b:4754d8f632] When was it popularized?
[b:4754d8f632]C.[/b:4754d8f632] Who were its major proponents (Chafer, Scofield, etc), and what are their backgrounds?
[b:4754d8f632]D.[/b:4754d8f632] Theological Backdrop of Its Introduction
....1. What was the prevalent theology when dispensationalism was introduced?
....2. Why was it introduced?
....3. How did dispensational theology differ from the accepted theology?
[b:4754d8f632]E.[/b:4754d8f632] What was the reaction of the church when it was introduced?
[b:4754d8f632]F.[/b:4754d8f632] How did dispensationalism spread so quickly to become what appears to be the dominant theological view of our time?
[b:4754d8f632]B.[/b:4754d8f632] How has dispensationalism evolved since Chafer and Scofield (progressive dispensationalism, etc).

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Bob

__________________
Bob Howes
Framingham, MA

A reoccurring thought:

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bob,

Buy, "Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth" by John Gerstner. It will answer all those questions and more. Soli Deo Gloria published a new version with some extra responses int he back, as well as some updated material.

__________________
C. Matthew McMahon, Ph.D.
John 5:39, "...search the Scriptures..."

Dr. C. Matthew McMahon.com, www.apuritansmind.com and www.puritanpublications.com
Member - Christ Presbyterian Church, Professor at WTS for Puritan History & Theology.

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Matt,
I looked at the TOC for the book at Amazon.com and it looks like its just what I'm looking for. Thanks. I'll have to find somewhere online to order it, as I don't think the local Christian bookstores would stock the book on their shelves (just a guess, though).

I was searching the web for info, and came across a little blurp about Chafer. I didn't know that he was an ordained Presbyterian minister? For some reason I always assumed he was a baptist.

I read somewhere else that Chafer's soteriology, as written in his institutes, are for the most part reformed. Just curious if you've read them and if they are indeed reformed?

Bob

[quote:4fa787eb8c][i:4fa787eb8c]Originally posted by blhowes[/i:4fa787eb8c]
Matt,
I looked at the TOC for the book at Amazon.com and it looks like its just what I'm looking for. Thanks. I'll have to find somewhere online to order it, as I don't think the local Christian bookstores would stock the book on their shelves (just a guess, though).

I was searching the web for info, and came across a little blurp about Chafer. I didn't know that he was an ordained Presbyterian minister? For some reason I always assumed he was a baptist.

I read somewhere else that Chafer's soteriology, as written in his institutes, are for the most part reformed. Just curious if you've read them and if they are indeed reformed?

Bob [/quote:4fa787eb8c]

Chafer's views were questioned by many in the early days. Warfield produced a critique of Chafer's book [i:4fa787eb8c]He That Is Spiritual [/i:4fa787eb8c] in which he wrote:



[quote:4fa787eb8c]
Mr. Chafer is in the unfortunate and, one would think, very uncomfortable condition of having two inconsistent systems of religion struggling together in his mind. He was bred an Evangelical, and as a minister of the Presbyterian Church, South, stands committed to Evangelicalism of the purest water. But he has long been associated in his work with a coterie of "Evangelists" and "Bible Teachers," among whom there flourishes that curious religious system (at once curiously pretentious and curiously shallow) which the Higher Life leaders of the middle of the last century brought into vogue; and he has not been immune from its infection.
[/quote:4fa787eb8c]

For more info go here: http://www.modernreformation.org/mr9...firewater.html

[Edited on 5-3-2004 by tcalbrecht]

__________________
Tom Albrecht
Member, Covenant URCNA, New Holland, PA.

"I'm not a famous man. I'm just a simple country doctor with horse sense."

Bob,

The best book to buy is actually not Gerstner's but Crenshaw and Gunn's [i:9081d2e0da]Dispensationalism Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow[/i:9081d2e0da]. You probably can't find it new, but check the usual used sources. It is by far the best treatment - and I speak as a former Dispy.

I will also email to you a series of Powerpoint presentations that I used in a Sunday School class on the End Times, where the emphasis was on refuting Dispensationalism and putting forth a Covenantal view of eschatology (without drawing sharp distinctions btw amil and postmil). It will be in a zip file.

Gerstner is OK (sometimes a bit over the top) and Poythress' book [i:9081d2e0da]Understanding Dispensationalists[/i:9081d2e0da] is also good. You may also want to - frankly - buy a Scofield Bible (the ORIGINAL if you can get it) and Chafer's Systematics and read the sections on justification, ecclesiology and eschatology, and then serve up some quotes to your family. They will probably be shocked.

Just one example - Scofield originally called Amos 9 THE critical text for understanding the distinction between the Church and Israel. But whoops! James in Acts 15 takes that [b:9081d2e0da]exact same text[/b:9081d2e0da] and applies it to the inclusion of the Gentiles into the church - the exact opposite of how Scofield uses it.

__________________
Fredrick T. Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

OOOOOO! Fred, you mentioned a book I don't have. If it is one up on Gerstner, I'd like to read. I will check on getting it and if I find it, will let you all know where it can be bought.

Tom,
Thanks for your post. I printed out the article and will read it on the way home.

Fred,
Thanks for the book recommendations and for sending me the powerpoint presentation. I appreciate it. The presentation looks like it'll be very helpful.

[b:ae0ecbe3e8]Matthew wrote:[/b:ae0ecbe3e8]
OOOOOO! Fred, you mentioned a book I don't have.

I wonder how this one slipped through the cracks?

Bob

[quote:f5471e56ca][i:f5471e56ca]Originally posted by webmaster[/i:f5471e56ca]
OOOOOO! Fred, you mentioned a book I don't have. If it is one up on Gerstner, I'd like to read. I will check on getting it and if I find it, will let you all know where it can be bought. [/quote:f5471e56ca]

Matthew,

It is by far the best. You want the updated edition (2nd I think). Grover Gunn is now a PCA pastor in TN.

One can be found at:

http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/...L?bi=278066798

Fred,

Would it be too much trouble to email that powerpoint presentation to me also?

Brian

__________________
^Brian Lanier^
Member: Redeemer Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Santa Maria, CA
Attending: First Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Sunnyvale, CA
http://www.lanier-perspective.blogspot.com

[quote:dae5531698][i:dae5531698]Originally posted by BrianLanier[/i:dae5531698]
Fred,

Would it be too much trouble to email that powerpoint presentation to me also?

Brian [/quote:dae5531698]

I need an email address, unless there is a way to post files here on this site. Matt? Scott?

ekmugen@aol.com

Another great book on Dispensaitonalism is Oswald T Allis's book "Prophecy and the Church." Good stuff!:book:

__________________
Patrick
OPC
MDiv, RTS Jackson.

"He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.

[b:c0ca5d6a5e]Patrick wrote:[/b:c0ca5d6a5e]
Another great book on Dispensaitonalism is Oswald T Allis's book "Prophecy and the Church." Good stuff!

Thanks.

The title sounds familiar. I'm thinking that may be one of the books on my bookshelf that I never got around to reading. I'll check when I get home.

Bob

[quote:357f66ee72][i:357f66ee72]Originally posted by BrianLanier[/i:357f66ee72]
ekmugen@aol.com [/quote:357f66ee72]

Done.

Thanks Fred!!!

[quote:6bdffb19c1][i:6bdffb19c1]Originally posted by webmaster[/i:6bdffb19c1]
Bob,

Buy, "Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth" by John Gerstner. It will answer all those questions and more. Soli Deo Gloria published a new version with some extra responses int he back, as well as some updated material. [/quote:6bdffb19c1]



My 2 cents, Gerstner represents the historic position excellently. Everyone should have this book in their library!

__________________
Scott Bushey
Husband to Tina, father to Nicole, Danielle and Zoe
Member First Presbyterian Church of Margate PCA

[quote:ea7a98942b][i:ea7a98942b]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:ea7a98942b]

I will also email to you a series of Powerpoint presentations that I used in a Sunday School class on the End Times, where the emphasis was on refuting Dispensationalism and putting forth a Covenantal view of eschatology (without drawing sharp distinctions btw amil and postmil). It will be in a zip file. [/quote:ea7a98942b]

Fred, Can I get this as well? It would be greatly appreciated.

jhicks_nospam@deadmen.org

Of course, delete "nospam" before sending.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Attending CCRPC, Member of TRBC
Reformers & Puritans -lllll- Puritan Pub
Board Rules - Signature Rules - Suggestion Box

Done.

And by the way, any of you that got it, please send me an email with comments. Eventually, this may find its way into print, and I'd like to keep working on it.


[quote:65f5a24d2b][i:65f5a24d2b]Originally posted by joshua[/i:65f5a24d2b]
[quote:65f5a24d2b][i:65f5a24d2b]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:65f5a24d2b]

I will also email to you a series of Powerpoint presentations that I used in a Sunday School class on the End Times, where the emphasis was on refuting Dispensationalism and putting forth a Covenantal view of eschatology (without drawing sharp distinctions btw amil and postmil). It will be in a zip file. [/quote:65f5a24d2b]

Fred, Can I get this as well? It would be greatly appreciated.

jhicks_nospam@deadmen.org

Of course, delete "nospam" before sending. [/quote:65f5a24d2b]

Patrick,
Thanks for the book recommendation. "Prophecy and the Church" was one of the books I had on my bookshelf. I started reading it tonight while my son was at karate practice. Good stuff!

I noticed a few other books I need to read next. I had bought a bunch of books years ago, but got so tired of anything related to dispensationalism that I never got around to reading them. There's a couple by Philip Mauro in particular that I'd like to read. I've heard good things about him.

Bob

[quote:d9fd6f626f][i:d9fd6f626f]Originally posted by webmaster[/i:d9fd6f626f]
Bob,

Buy, "Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth" by John Gerstner. It will answer all those questions and more. Soli Deo Gloria published a new version with some extra responses int he back, as well as some updated material. [/quote:d9fd6f626f]

I wouldn't.

http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj3d.pdf

Who is Wrong? A Review of John Gerstner's "Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth" (Volume 3, Number 1 (Spring 1992) pp. 73-94)
by Richard L. Mayhue

Dr. John H. Gerstner, a recognized scholar with impressive credentials, has issued a call for dispensationalists to admit the glaring gaps between their system and orthodox Christianity. However, his presentation of dispensationalism contains shortcomings that necessitate this special review article to point out some of these and to challenge dispensationalists to publicize a greater clarification of their position. Many of the assumptions that undergird Dr. Gerstner's case against dispensationalism are in error. These faults are magnified by a number of major weaknesses in his argument. A review of the book shows how the author's treatment of his subject deteriorates even more through ten representative theological misstatements. The work is of such a misleading nature that a retraction of some kind seems to be in order.
---------end excerpt/summary------

Grover Gunn and Curtis Crenshaw's work is a bit more irenic and truthful, IMO....though they don't touch as much on most contemporary dispensationalist folks. IMO, most of the folks in the covenant camp cite older dispensationalists and older teachings which most modern dispy folks simply don't hold to anymore.

But that's just my observation. There are plenty of wrong things in dispensationalism that one can harp on. I'd start you family off with a trip through Romans 11 and point out how many 'people's of God' are listed here. Ryrie called this the [i:d9fd6f626f]sine que non[/i:d9fd6f626f] of dispensationalism. The 'dispesnationalism teaches two ways of salvation' argument is old and has been more than answered by folks like Ryrie (in his 94 edition of [i:d9fd6f626f]Dispesnationalism[/i:d9fd6f626f]) with ample quotes from Chafer and others denying the very thing that folks like Gunn, Crenshaw, Gerstner, Mathison and others keep accusing him and all dispensationalists of.

A consistent dispensationlist.... will eventually end up either Covenant Premill or semi-progressive dispensationalist. I personally think it's just a matter of time before MacArthur has another 'shift' in his theology and ends up there as well. So use the 'literal interpretation' to your advantage in discussing the scriptures with your family. Focus on historical info later.... and then, when you do, make sure your info is right. Even as a former normative dispensationalist (ryrie, walvoord, pentecost and company down to the present - I'm now somewhere between progressive and covenant premill...), I still find it irritating to hear the same old arguments and accusations tossed around by covenant folks as if Scofield's ungaurded and wrong statements in the early 1900's are reflective of dispensationalism as it stands now.

[Edited on 5-4-2004 by OS_X]

__________________
K. Joel Gilliard
Theologically Correct dot Com
http://www.theologicallycorrect.com
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The Upcoming CD: The Definition

Kerry,

In my estimation, it really depends on the target audience. While I agree that Blaising, Block et al. have done a good job of defining progressive dispensationalism, and that in [b:f615f73c15]academic[/b:f615f73c15] circles, they rule the day far more than the original Scofield bible or Chafer, the fact is that almost no lay person in dispensational churches have ever heard of them. If you are not targeting academic and scholarly audiences, it is kind of like trying to refute technicaly quantum mechanics to 5th graders. The response you get is "Huh?" usually followed by, "if [i:f615f73c15]that[/i:f615f73c15] is what 'progressive' dispensationalists believe, then they are heretics too!"

The average fundamentalist dispensational church still uses the New Scofield Bible, and its pastor has Chafer on his shelves. Block and Blaising are to them what Ridderbos and Vos are to the average Calvinistic pastor - nearly unreadable, uncomprehensible, unknown and useless. THAT is why so many concentrate on Chafer, Ryrie (they've heard of [u:f615f73c15]him[/u:f615f73c15]) and Scofield.

So the next time that you get tired of hearing about certain critiques of Dispensationalism, remember that they are not for you, but that sweet little old lady that thinks that America will be damned to hell if it doesn't pump money into Israel because it is the "people of God."

[quote:f615f73c15][i:f615f73c15]Originally posted by OS_X[/i:f615f73c15]

Grover Gunn and Curtis Crenshaw's work is a bit more irenic and truthful, IMO....though they don't touch as much on most contemporary dispensationalist folks. IMO, most of the folks in the covenant camp cite older dispensationalists and older teachings which most modern dispy folks simply don't hold to anymore.

But that's just my observation. There are plenty of wrong things in dispensationalism that one can harp on. I'd start you family off with a trip through Romans 11 and point out how many 'people's of God' are listed here. Ryrie called this the [i:f615f73c15]sine que non[/i:f615f73c15] of dispensationalism. The 'dispesnationalism teaches two ways of salvation' argument is old and has been more than answered by folks like Ryrie (in his 94 edition of [i:f615f73c15]Dispesnationalism[/i:f615f73c15]) with ample quotes from Chafer and others denying the very thing that folks like Gunn, Crenshaw, Gerstner, Mathison and others keep accusing him and all dispensationalists of.

A consistent dispensationlist.... will eventually end up either Covenant Premill or semi-progressive dispensationalist. I personally think it's just a matter of time before MacArthur has another 'shift' in his theology and ends up there as well. So use the 'literal interpretation' to your advantage in discussing the scriptures with your family. Focus on historical info later.... and then, when you do, make sure your info is right. Even as a former normative dispensationalist (ryrie, walvoord, pentecost and company down to the present - I'm now somewhere between progressive and covenant premill...), I still find it irritating to hear the same old arguments and accusations tossed around by covenant folks as if Scofield's ungaurded and wrong statements in the early 1900's are reflective of dispensationalism as it stands now.

[Edited on 5-4-2004 by OS_X] [/quote:f615f73c15]

[quote:e95dd09739][i:e95dd09739]Originally posted by blhowes[/i:e95dd09739]
Patrick,
Thanks for the book recommendation. "Prophecy and the Church" was one of the books I had on my bookshelf. I started reading it tonight while my son was at karate practice. Good stuff!
[/quote:e95dd09739]
No problem. It's suppose to be a classic on the subject. Hope you enjoy.

I recommend:

Dispensationalism: Rightly Dividing the People of God? By Keith A Mathison.

I have found this book very useful. The comments at www.tabernaclebookshop.org are:

The author