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Dispensationalism discuss Is the a silver bullet argument against Dispensationalism? in the Covenant Theology forums; Is the a silver bullet argument against Dispensationalism? How would one best refute dispensationalism. Would it be a case of going to the likes 1 ...

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    VanVos is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
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    Is the a silver bullet argument against Dispensationalism?

    Is the a silver bullet argument against Dispensationalism? How would one best refute dispensationalism. Would it be a case of going to the likes 1 Cor 15:23-28, 45-52 and Rom 5:12-21 that shows without question that God has only one plan for one people in Christ?

    -VanVos
    Rev Jonathan James Goundry
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    Jonathan:
    The silver bullet worked only for the Lone Ranger. There is no silver bullet in reality. It is not the infallibility of any argument that counts, it is the argument that reaches to the person, the individual, that matters. Presenting an airtight argument is of little value if it doesn't achieve its end. Sure, you put it in a state of either acceptance or of having coals heaped up, but that's a feather in no one's cap. The whole idea is to take a person by the hand and lead him into the truth. If we take the attitude that he either goes with us or goes the way of perdition, then I would say that we are presenting to him our own gospel, and not God's, even if it is the Reformed faith. The Spirit is not interested in promoting our personal views; He is interested in the promotion of the gospel of Christ. We are His ambassadors, not our own.

    If we think we have a silver bullet, we fool only ourselves. We have the Bible, God's own infallible testament for faith, and people refuse it too; how much more our little and feeble arguments.
    JohnV

    John Vandervliet
    Ontario, Canada
    member of: Canadian Reformed Church
    "In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are" C.S Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

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    VanVos is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
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    Thank you for replying to my question, interesting reply, not quite what I was getting at, but nice thoughts.

    Van Vos
    Rev Jonathan James Goundry
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    Missionary with International Christian Institute www.iciministry.org
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    Covenant Joel is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
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    Seems to me that the most devastating argument against dispensationalism is from Romans 11. The olive tree illustration completely disproves the teaching of dispensationalism, because it hits at the heart of dispensationalism--the Israel-Church distinction.

    Joel
    Joel
    TE, Rocky Mountain Presbyery (PCA)
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    VanVos is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
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    Actually that remindes me of a debate I listened to not so long ago between a covenantalist and ultra-dispensationalist. Rom 11 was used by the covenantalist to prove that the is one people of God through out redemptive history. Excellent proof text, thanks.

    VanVos

    P.S. Mind you find that the is a differences of opinions even amongst covenantalist as to what the olive tree is.
    Rev Jonathan James Goundry
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    Ranger is offline. Inactive User
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    If I remember correctly, some dispensationalists use Romans 11 as a proof text as well to show the separation between the ingrafted and natural branches, that they remain separate for eternity in Christ. It's lame, but I have heard that argued before.
    Ranger
    SBC, but personally confess the 1689 LBCF
    Yunnan, China

    "If we regularly beheld the glory of Christ, our Christian walk with God would become more sweet and pleasant, our spiritual light and strength would grow daily stronger and our lives would more gloriously represent the glory of Christ. Death would be most welcome to us." - John Owen

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    [quote:51d61895ec]Therefore remember that at one time you [b:51d61895ec]Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision[/b:51d61895ec], which is made in the flesh by hands-- remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. [b:51d61895ec]But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.[/b:51d61895ec] For he himself is our peace, who has [b:51d61895ec]made us both one[/b:51d61895ec] and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, [b:51d61895ec]that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two[/b:51d61895ec], so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. [b:51d61895ec]So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit[/b:51d61895ec].-Eph 2:11-22 (ESV)[/quote:51d61895ec]

    I find this a particularly compelling text in refutation of dispensationalism, it's no silver bullet, but then, as has already been pointed out, there aren't any...sorry it's so long but I wanted to give as much context as possible.
    Michael
    PCA, MI

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    VanVos is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
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    Thanks I love those verses.

    VanVos
    Rev Jonathan James Goundry
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    [quote:9b5b869030]I find this a particularly compelling text in refutation of dispensationalism, it's no silver bullet, but then, as has already been pointed out, there aren't any[/quote:9b5b869030]
    The reason I said that was because I just don't like the silver bullet idea. The compelling arguments, or the proof texts, etc, are not the reasons why people believe what they do when they believe wrongly. You won't ever find an atheist, for example, who believes there is no God because he has proof, or because the arguments seem so compelling to him. In the same way, I don't believe for a moment that, when it comes right down to it, you will find a dispensationalist who actually believes in it because the Bible compels him to it.

    The text quoted above is ample reason to think so.

    I think that people have their minds made up before they listen to reason, before they listen the the text's actual meaning, or before they really hear the gospel.

    But, you see, that's the Ontological Argument coming out in me. Everyone knows about God, about His power and His deity, and not just that He has power and deity. It is right there in everyone's reasoning. Presuppers are keen on pointing that out. They may call it the Transcendental argument, or the basic presupposition, or whatever, but it all cuts the same swath in people's reasoning.

    If we were looking for a key text for dispensationalism, we need first be honest about it. What we are looking for is first of all a text that assures ourselves that we haven't been led down the garden path with our own theology. Let the Bible speak plainly, and we will hear it, we are thinking to ourselves. When we become assured, then we want to convey that same assurance to others; because in our heart we know that it isn't our own self-made assurance at all, but what the Spirit has granted us. And it is that that we want to convey to others, if we can.

    In the end, it is a simple matter of whether or not people, even we ourselves, are avoiding, refusing, or even rejecting the truth, both in nature and in Scripture, which God is desiring us to know. Anything other than the plain truth is just rebellion, and cannot in any way be thought of as sound reasoning, not even by human standards.

    When it comes right down to it, there really is no such thing as human reason as opposed to divine reason. It is either reasonable or it is not; and if it is reasonable, man cannot claim any merit or authorship for it. What we call human reason is really nothing more than an admission of the limited nature of our knowledge and abilities.

    So I don't think we are looking for a silver bullet text as much as we are looking for a way into the heart with what has been granted us. And in light of that even the above text will do nothing at all if it is pointed at people like a gun rather than being offered to them as food.
    JohnV

    John Vandervliet
    Ontario, Canada
    member of: Canadian Reformed Church
    "In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are" C.S Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

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    VanVos is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
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    [quote:f11826f8c9]So I don't think we are looking for a silver bullet text as much as we are looking for a way into the heart with what has been granted us. And in light of that even the above text will do nothing at all if it is pointed at people like a gun rather than being offered to them as food.[/quote:f11826f8c9]

    Now the question is, is that a silver bullet argument as to why you can't have a silver bullet argument. But seriously, I hear what your saying, you've certainly got the right perspective on how to approach someone, when it comes to an issue such as this.

    Blessings VanVos
    Rev Jonathan James Goundry
    *Calvinist @ Heart
    Missionary with International Christian Institute www.iciministry.org
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