Origin of Idolatry?

D. Paul · #1 (**permalink**) 07-27-2009, 08:42 AM

A new SS class has started at our church, Daniel and Revelation . After session #1, I asked the teacher a few Q's just to get a feel for where he would be headed. Though he "disliked the label", yep...it was going to be Dispen-sensational. Therefore I appreciate this thread:
Anyone See a Problem?

But, as he was working through some historical background and the Tower of Babel, the teacher stated "There was wickedness beforehand but this was the beginning of the practice of idolatry." Without it being disruptive, I went

Seriously, is there a case to be made for this? In brief research, I could find no direct mention of idolatry in Genesis 3, but Paul McDade has a sermon Adam, Christ and the Ten Commandments (which I think I've listened to a dozen times). He claims Adam broke every one of the Ten at the Fall.

But to say there was no idolatry until Babel...???

Scott1 · #2 (**permalink**) 07-27-2009, 08:50 AM

You may want to graciously participate and learn in this class. If you can use this as a way to input covenant theology and learn covenant theology better (by seeing the contrast), you might do this.

You may find helpful John Gerstner's book, Wrongly dividing the Word of Truth. The book is hard-hitting, it was almost too much for me at first. It seemed that Arminianism is obviously not "the doctrines of grace" (not "Calvinism", not reformed theology) but to make the connection that dispensationalism is not took a much longer time for me, at least, to see. It took me a long time to see the connection between reformed theology and covenant theology and the contrast with dispensationalism.

I have found that when dispensationalism is taught, there is often no understanding of covenant theology as an alternate framework. Also, that the full implications of dispensationalism are not understood (e.g. eternal separation of people with some Jewish ancestry from the Body of Christ, that the Holy Spirit could actually be removed from earth (think about that for a moment) so the antichrist can be revealed, that Jesus had to leave the earth because Israel would not receive Him as Messiah, and plan to come back in the Millennium), that the church is resurrected before the second coming, that only people with some Jewish ancestry are resurrected later).

Often people who teach dispensationalism have a standard list of objections to covenant theology memorized (e.g. doesn't take Bible literally, doesn't care about (political) Israel, etc.) but they do not at all understand covenant theology, not even at the most basic level.

You're in a difficult spot, and can only pray for God's direction and grace. On the one hand, God may use you to have input and influence in this. On the other, you might be countenancing wrong theology... or at least a theological framework you do not agree with (because dispensationalism is not reformed theology).

D. Paul · #3 (**permalink**) 07-27-2009, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott1

You may want to graciously participate and learn in this class. If you can use this as a way to input covenant theology and learn covenant theology better (by seeing the contrast), you might do this.

I participate for this very reason. It is in this setting that these-type statements are made.

So, Scott, what about this "Origin" of idolatry?

***toddpedlar*** · #4 (**permalink**) 07-27-2009, 09:29 AM

It would be hard to justify the origin of idolatry as late as Babel... (and I don't quite understand the motivation to say that is when it started). Adam's sin most certainly involved idolatry (and the sermon you suggest echoes Edward Fisher's comments in the Marrow of Modern Divinity, wherein he argues the same thing - that all ten are effectively broken in Adam's sin)

**BobVigneault** · #5 (**permalink**) 07-27-2009, 12:46 PM

Idolatry began when Satan's worship and dependence moved from God to himself. Eve was next when she accepted that the serpent was a 'legitimate' point of contact with God's Truth but apart from God's Word. She listened to the serpent instead of God. Adam quickly followed when he elevated the word of his wife above the Word of God.

Idolatry does not require a statue or picture or object, man commits idolatry when he seeks a point of contact or approach to God that is apart from God's Word. There is one mediator between God and man, Christ alone, the Living Word, any other mediator is an idol.

nleshelman · #6 (**permalink**) 07-27-2009, 02:17 PM

My own little heart... that is the origin of idolatry... and my father Adam's before that.

D. Paul · #7 (**permalink**) 07-27-2009, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobVigneault

Idolatry began when Satan's worship and dependence moved from God to himself. Eve was next when she accepted that the serpent was a 'legitimate' point of contact with God's Truth but apart from God's Word. She listened to the serpent instead of God. Adam quickly followed when he elevated the word of his wife above the Word of God.

Idolatry does not require a statue or picture or object, man commits idolatry when he seeks a point of contact or approach to God that is apart from God's Word. There is one mediator between God and man, Christ alone, the Living Word, any other mediator is an idol.

Yep.

-----Added 7/27/2009 at 02:29:55 EST-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by nleshelman

My own little heart... that is the origin of idolatry... and my father Adam's before that.

...and yep.

jwithnell · #8 (**permalink**) 07-27-2009, 02:41 PM

I'm with Mr. Bawb, actually from the moment Satan asked ... did God really say?

Richard Tallach · #9 (**permalink**) 07-28-2009, 08:48 AM

It depends what you mean by idolatry. Adam was worshipping himself and Satan in wanting to be like God in eating the fruit and heeding the voice of the Wicked One, rather than the Holy One. Instead of being satisfied with being God's Image, he wanted to be God. He was also - in principle - the first Satanist.

Cain would have known to come before the Lord with blood but worshipped himself and his own thinking when he worshipped in a wrong way with vegetables only.

These are the breach of the first two commandments.

If you mean, when did man start making graven images and fall down before them, I don't know if the Bible tells us. I'm sure we can't exclude the possibility it happened in the antedeluvian period in the Cainite line and spreading to the Sethite line by intermarriage, when we have such developments so early on, including Abel's murder by someone involved in false worship.

CharlieJ · #10 (**permalink**) 07-28-2009, 08:55 AM

The narrow meaning of the word "idol" is "image," and "idolatry" is "image worship." Now, I think there is a spiritual sense in which idolatry can be defined more broadly, but the overwhelming use of the terms in the Bible refers to physical objects. If he was speaking narrowly, we should grant him that. Still, I'm not sure how you wind up with Babel. Were they using the tower as an object of worship? I guess that's likely.

Jimmy the Greek · #11 (**permalink**) 07-28-2009, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

The narrow meaning of the word "idol" is "image," and "idolatry" is "image worship." Now, I think there is a spiritual sense in which idolatry can be defined more broadly, but the overwhelming use of the terms in the Bible refers to physical objects. If he was speaking narrowly, we should grant him that. Still, I'm not sure how you wind up with Babel. Were they using the tower as an object of worship? I guess that's likely.

I see what Charlie is getting at. If he means that Babel was the beginning of "publicly practiced corporate idolatry" rather than the spiritual idolatry of the heart, we might grant a little charity. Seeking this clarification in discussion would certainly allow for the fact that spiritual idolatry had its beginning in the Garden to be brought up.

Wannabee · #12 (**permalink**) 07-28-2009, 09:36 AM

I hadn't thought of that, Charlie. Good observation. It may also be that the teacher isn't thinking of the deeper concerns of the heart, which could lead to deeper discussion. If you do get Gerstner's book, be careful. Though there are some good observations in it, it's a broad brush presentation that largely focuses on the more abhorrent aspects of dispensationalism, which may or may not be present in your church. His "tone" seems to come across as derisive as well, though he claims that it is not. Too many consider his work the magnum opus against dispensationalism. It's largely a straw man argument though.
Often an open and honest question can help the discussion, such as "Wouldn't idolatry within the heart, which Jesus clearly teaches is the focus of the commandments, have to be present for any sin?" That keeps the teacher as the one presenting the material and submits to their authority in the class while bringing to their attention a possible ramification of their teaching. It may lead to deeper and more edifying discussion then, as all in the class would have to reflect and consider that they too are idolaters.