I am a "Covenant" man, and only briefly was a Dispy a little while, while I agree that some extreme elements distort Scripture. I no longer wish to "bash" them all together. My reason? Not because I agree with them, but a Historical understanding of what they were aiming at, I will put the US marker at 1917 (Scofields second edition of his study Bible.) The "aim/goal" of these people was simple, they were fighting a rising tide of Liberal Theology, which at this point had hopped from Germany to England, to the USA. The cause was noble, and I can see why people were attracted to it. SADLY, it was by and large based on poor exegesis. I state my "sympathy" in the Historic context, that is to say: Had I been around in 1917, I might well have bought me a Scofield Study Bible, to do my very small part in stemming the tide of Liberalism. In summation, while I do NOT agree with this Theology, if understood in the crucible in which it was developed, I at least am a little more understanding. (That said, everyone, this Christmas, give a nice Reformed Study Bible to a Dispy you LOVE!) My Grace and Peace my beloved Brethren.

__________________
~etexas~

puhlease, they get no sympathy from me. They had all the reformers preceding them and they created an ignorant hodge podge of a theology than engulfed Christianity with light weight superficial preachers and followers.

__________________
~Keon Garraway~ Brooklyn, NY Member of Franklin Square OPC

Love for God demonstrated by the love for our children in giving them a God centered education is the only hope for our country. by David Morrow
Pslam 71:20 [Thou], which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

The graciousness and love of Christ followed by elitism. Nothing new under the sun. It is the greatest of foolishnesses and arrogant pride to take credit for understanding truth and denigrate others for misunderstanding. Generally such elitism is permeated with error. Does not the God of heaven work in man to will and to do?

__________________
For the Glory of our King,
Joe Johnson
Married up in 1988 and blessed with two wonderful sons
TMS graduate
Preacherboy at Cornerstone Community Church, Escanaba, MI
SoundLife.org

I hope that contained a little sarcasm. I grew up in a dispy background, with parents from a dispy background, with grandparents from a dispy background, etc. How was I to believe anything else? And my family were not followers of light-weight, superficial teachings. Although I am no longer dispy, all of my family and most of my friends are.

Although many teachers of dispy-ism have created a hodge podge theology, don't blame those who sit under the teachings and know nothing else.

__________________
Kim G
Non-denom church (holds to the WCF)
Zion Community Church, Greenville, SC

Teach me Your way, O LORD;
I will walk in Your truth;
Unite my heart to fear Your name.
Psalm 86:11

I think the point Keon was simply trying to make was that most teachers of dispensationalism have ignored Christian history. The ones I sat under did. They flat out ignored history, and if you weren't a dispensationalist then you were some branch off of Catholicism. My dispensational teachers at least, were very much elitists as well.

__________________
Ryan Barnhart - Pastor of OGBC
Husband to a beautiful wife, Father to two beautiful girls
"But by the grace of God I am what I am." I Corinthians 15:10

"I confess to you, that if I can but live and die serving the Lord Jesus, it will make no difference to me whether I am eaten by Cannibals or by worms. And in the Great Day my Resurrection body will rise as fair as yours in the likeness of our risen Redeemer." - John Paton

Ah, yes, aren't we all when we are at our worse?

__________________
Ivan Schoen, Pastor * Maranatha Baptist Church * Poplar Grove, Illinois USA www.maranatha-sbc.org/
“One of the most important discoveries I have ever made is this truth: God is most glorified in me when I am most satisfied in him. This is the motor that drives my ministry as a pastor. It affects everything I do.” --- Dr. John Piper

So a distinction should be made between laymen and ministers/teachers.

__________________
Casey Bessette
Westminster OPC • West Suburbs of Chicago • My Blog: Paradise Regained

"It is part of the calling of the ekklesia to learn to know the love of Christ that surpasses all knowledge and also to make known within the world of science 'the manifold wisdom of God' in order that the final end of theology, as of all things, may be that the name of the Lord is glorified. Theology and dogmatics, too, exist for the Lord's sake." — Herman Bavinck, Reformed Dogmatics, vol. 1, p. 46

Okay, I see where you're coming from. However, my Bible teachers at college were all dispy, but I thought they seemed fairly balanced and actually explained other positions without seeming (to me) unfair or elitist.

The men they had speak at chapel, on the other hand . . . !

I guess it depends who you talk to.

__________________
Kim G
Non-denom church (holds to the WCF)
Zion Community Church, Greenville, SC

Teach me Your way, O LORD;
I will walk in Your truth;
Unite my heart to fear Your name.
Psalm 86:11

Perhaps. Many laymen will pick up of the tendencies of their minsters, be it dispensationalism or Reformed theology.


I was simply attempting to temper post three. Reformed theology is not the only school of thought that turns out elitists. I don't believe that is what wannabee was trying to say, but just in case anyone read it that way.

__________________
Ryan Barnhart - Pastor of OGBC
Husband to a beautiful wife, Father to two beautiful girls
"But by the grace of God I am what I am." I Corinthians 15:10

"I confess to you, that if I can but live and die serving the Lord Jesus, it will make no difference to me whether I am eaten by Cannibals or by worms. And in the Great Day my Resurrection body will rise as fair as yours in the likeness of our risen Redeemer." - John Paton

It does depend on who you are studying under. I studied under some pretty hard-core dispensationalists that taught some pretty crazy things. See Peter Ruckman. That doesn't mean they are all that way though. Praise the Lord for that.

__________________
Ryan Barnhart - Pastor of OGBC
Husband to a beautiful wife, Father to two beautiful girls
"But by the grace of God I am what I am." I Corinthians 15:10

"I confess to you, that if I can but live and die serving the Lord Jesus, it will make no difference to me whether I am eaten by Cannibals or by worms. And in the Great Day my Resurrection body will rise as fair as yours in the likeness of our risen Redeemer." - John Paton

Thanks for the clarity. My post had nothing to do with theological positions, and everything to do with the pursuit of theological understanding with godliness and humility.
Elitism knows no bounds. It was prevalent from the Romans to the Sanhedrin and back to Rome again. It exists today in every facet of humanity. It is a blight in our churches that has no place in godliness, especially for those who profess God's sovereignty (How could someone who understands, embraces and professes God's sovereignty possibly be elitist?!).
Just the other day our SS class turned into a "bash the guys who are doing it wrong" session. It was arrogant and a horrible example of what we are to do be doing. As the (about 10 or so) bullet points came up someone pointed to errors around us, culturally and within "christendom." After this I took the time to show them how we would be much better served to take each of these bullet points and examine the planks in our own eyes rather than standing with the Pharisee and thanking God that we aren't like those other churches. While some didn't get it, the challenge didn't completely fall on deaf ears. May God break our hearts, crush our pride and turn us fully to Him.

__________________
For the Glory of our King,
Joe Johnson
Married up in 1988 and blessed with two wonderful sons
TMS graduate
Preacherboy at Cornerstone Community Church, Escanaba, MI
SoundLife.org

Boy, is this not the truth.

Roman Catholics, with the Pope leading them, still believe themselves to be the true apostolic church, although they don't publicly state this anymore. To my knowledge, they have never formally renounced the anathemas from the Council of Trent against Protestants.

The Campbellites (Church of Christ), as mentioned on a previous thread, have long thought themselves to be the true church, with anyone outside of their walls being damned. Fortunately, a much smaller number of them actually believe that today, but they still are a very reclusive group, being somewhat suspicious of "outsiders."

In the 1890s, a vast number of SBC churches adopted a teaching called "Landmarkism," which essentially taught that baptism outside of immersion and outside of the SBC was not legitimate baptism - thus possibly endangering one from not entering the pearly gates if that were not the case.
Some SBCers told me in the early 90s that Landmarkism would be gone by now, but unfortunately, it still exists in some pockets.

But more unfortunately, the nastiness of the dispensationalists is still out there, with arrogant and hostile attitudes towards those who will not accept their system. Don't believe me? Then read "The End Times Controversy," edited by Tim LaHaye, which came out in early 2005. See also the other threads on this board dealing with MacArthur's challenge of "wayward Calvinists" to return to the dispy fold.

So, if we are really counting, my experience is 1 reformed elitist to every 10 catholic/arminian/dispensational elitists.

__________________
Randy Harris
Heritage Church (Independent)
Oklahoma City, OK

Well said, Etexas!

Personally, I have more than sympathy for them, however. In the battle for the Bible during the 20th century, the dispensationalists stood tall for truth while more educated Reformed leaders were doing the leftward hustle. Even in my "evangelical" seminary, the most left-leaning profs (e.g., James Daane, Jack Rogers, etc.) were from the Presbyterian and Reformed camps. They almost took delight in debunking the naive faith of seminarians who "foolishly" came into the place with a belief in an inerrant Bible. And, in the better dispi schools (e.g., Dallas), many of the profs were at least 4 pt. Calvinists (e.g., S. Lewis Johnson). John MacArthur, to cite but one more example, has held fast for truth in an environment when most of his peers were running off getting purpose driven or seeker sensitive.

Do I lament the dogmatism within dispensationalism? Sure. But, last time I checked we were pretty dogmatic over here too. Do I wish that they had a larger understanding of the Kingdom of God, without the two track nuttiness? Sure, but once in a while we see some pretty sectarian and nutty ideas emerging out of Reformed circles (e.g., FV, and for many here, theonomy).

Let me be clear: criticisms of dispensational hermeneutics, rapture fiction, and the woeful misreading of the Bible are ALL worthy of severe critique. But, the critique is among brethren who differ, not enemies. We owe much to our dispensational brethren. In many cases, those of us who have discovered the DoG began our pilgrimage in dispensational churches. We discovered Christ and began to grow in him in dispensational contexts. Dispensational books whetted our appetites for deeper study of God's Word.

That is why the recent rebuttal by Sam Waldron, MacArthur's Manifesto, is such a good book (IMO). Waldron pulls no punches, leaves no illogical step undiscovered, and never shirks from pointing out how wrong-headed dispensational eschatology really is. Yet, throughout the book, he models the kind of irenic and respectful tone that furthers diagogue and wins people over to your side rather than alienating them and polarizing them against you. Kim Riddlebarger is another good example of someone who doesn't spare the pen in detailing the deficits of dispensationalism, but from the standpoint of a friend and brother, not an angry critic. His Case for Amillennialism is a masterpiece of gracious polemic. And, because both of these men were once dispensationalists (as many of us were), they write with a sensitivity to the kinds of arguments that will have force with their dispensational opponents.

My Reformed library includes several thousand Reformed and Puritan works AND everything John MacArthur ever wrote. I am not ashambed to profit from those scholars, leaders, and churchmen greater than I. So, etexas, my computer is a "no dispi-bashing zone" too.

All in all, I can pardon some of the errors when they were on the side of the angels so often.

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I had a couple of thoughts on this. One, often confidence can be perceived as elitism. Even if someone is wrong, their confidence that they're right is not necessarily elitism. We're all wrong somewhere. But we still teach what we perceive as truth. We confront error. But do we do so with love, grace and humility, or derision, pride and arrogance?
The other thought was that we tend to notice the arrogance and elitism of those we disagree with more than those "in our camp." It seems to me that those with the most education, greatest influence and power in the world tend to be elitist, whether they're actually right or not. The exceptions shine forth with the glory of God, shedding light in the darkness.

__________________
For the Glory of our King,
Joe Johnson
Married up in 1988 and blessed with two wonderful sons
TMS graduate
Preacherboy at Cornerstone Community Church, Escanaba, MI
SoundLife.org

this is exactly where I am coming from.

__________________
~Keon Garraway~ Brooklyn, NY Member of Franklin Square OPC

Love for God demonstrated by the love for our children in giving them a God centered education is the only hope for our country. by David Morrow
Pslam 71:20 [Thou], which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

Joe,

Please define "elitism".

Once you have done this, please explain what you meant here by "The graciousness and love of Christ followed by elitism". Were you referring to the second post on the thread?

After that, would you please explain why you rolled your eyes.

Thanks,

Adam

__________________
Adam Brink, Livermore Wine Country, California
Grace Church of Pleasanton, PCA

Attorney: Chicolini, when were you born?
Chicolini: I don't remember. I was just a little baby.
~Chico Marx in Duck Soup

S. Lewis Johnson was a 5 pointer, but your point is well taken. Various types of 4 point views were more common among the other Dallas faculty.

__________________
Chris
OPC member
Now attending Grace Community Baptist Church
Mandeville, LA

"Faith alone saves, but it is a faith that works." - S. Lewis Johnson

Brother, when I said sympathy as stated in my OP it was in the Historic sense, the period I write of was one in which you had good Bible believing Christians who were starting to hear German born higher criticism, many of these folk were simple good people, farmers, mill-workers, teachers. They were afraid that the basics of faith were slowly being stripped away, they wanted a "champion" for the fundamentals of faith, they embraced men like Scofield. You say they "had the reformers" tell me, do you think these people had personal libraries with 4000 books? They did not. Most had a Bible and not much more. There is almost a collective guilt here. Where were the Reformed thinkers at this juncture? Most were involved with "in house" squabbles and infighting. "We" were not there for them. we left them in the cold! Read some American Church History from this period. So yes, I in a sense feel sorry that these people were grasping for a defense of the basics. (Or what they saw as basics) so YES, I do have sympathy for these people in that period. Now, someone threw Ruckman in my face. Did I mention him in my OP? I did not! My sympathy is in retrospect. I am talking about a time prior to such men. I am Reformed to the marrow, but I am going to say this: If the solid reformed minds of that period had not been sitting in Ivory Towers taking pot-shots at each other (RATHER than reaching out to the farmer in the Midwest) perhaps teachings like those of Ruckman might not have have emerged. Grace and Peace.

__________________
~etexas~

ETex,

I think it is easy to assume a pious attitude of "self-malediction" against the reformed churches at any period of time.

I don't think it's fair to say that the Reformed world was busy with in-fightings and nothing else. Reformed churches were evangelizing the world at the end of the 19th Century, fighting off higher criticism and unbelief at Princeton, shepherding their flocks, speaking before Congress, recovering from the collapse of the republic and reeling from reconstruction, and so on and on.

America rejected the faith of its forefathers (puritanism), and came under God's judgment for it: dispensationalism being merely one aspect of that judgment.

I think that your pity for many dear saints who were misled is noble, but I would not make too much of the supposed or real mistakes of our reformed forebears. I'd be interested if actual historical examples were brought forward rather than a mere accusation. For instance, the life of J. Gresham Machen is a glaring contradiction to the basic idea you seem to have stated.

Teachers are subject to harsher criticism, and shall give a stricter account of their actions. Thus, when Anton argued that the Reformed faith was before them, he's spot on. A teacher who does not know ecclesiastical history is not to be pitied, he is to be educated, and to be silent until he understands that he doesn't need to reinvent the wheel.

As the point has been made by others, the congregants are to be pitied, but the teachers deserve no such pity.

Just my

Adam