A member of another forum denies orthodox Christian Doctrines

[Anton Bruckner]

There is a thread on raptureready discussing whether Jesus is Omnipresent. Here is an excerpt from a response.

"IMO The Holy Spirit is only in the believer, not everywhere. His power has been limited by the Father in what He can do through and in partnership with the believer. The Restrainer of evil in the world is taken out at the rapture because the believer no longer is here to contain that Spirit. Once people begin to be saved tehy will be killed because satan know he must keep the Holy Spirit from gaining ground."

The above quote basically denies the Omnipresence of God by denying the Omnipresence of the Holy Spirit. It basically assumes the trinity but only gives full Deity to the Father.

{Moderator: Changed topic of thread to remove blanket statement against a system of doctrine. Just because one person holds this opinion does not mean that the whole system agrees}

[Edited on 12-16-2005 by Dan....]

[Average Joey]

Wow,I haven`t been over there in a month.

Keon,have you tried to get a new membership over there?Are you sure your ban was permenant?

[ReformedWretch]

[Herald]

Keon - the key to your post was the quote "IMO." Having come out of dispensationalism I have to say I have never heard or been taught that the Holy Spirit is limited. Dispensationalists are guilty of a great many things. Their view on the trinity is not one of them. Perhaps the person who made this quote was, as he stated, just offering "his opinion."

[blhowes]

Originally posted by Slippery
The Restrainer of evil in the world is taken out at the rapture because the believer no longer is here to contain that Spirit. Once people begin to be saved they will be killed because satan know he must keep the Holy Spirit from gaining ground."

This is one of the (many) things about dispensationalism that made me walk around with a puzzled look on my face. If the Holy Spirit is no longer on the earth after the rapture, how are hearts regenerated and people saved?

[Edited on 12-16-2005 by blhowes]

[Anton Bruckner]

Bill actually it is widespread. To justify the rapture, "The Restrainer" is deemed the Holy Spirit. The Church indwelt by the Holy Spirit becomes the restraining influence of evil in the world. (This is kinda suspect since they are certain cultures that are wholly pagan, and still have a well ordered society where the civil magistrates punish evil etc).

Now "The Restrainer that lets until He is taken out of the way", thereby becomes pre tribulational Christians, hence the taken out of the way becomes the rapture.

Because of this eschatological position, the Holy Spirit is thus limited and not omnipresent, and to justify this the blame is thus put on The Father.

This is the general Dispensationalist line of thinking, its just that the person whom I quote followed this line of thinking to its logical conclusion and states that the Holy Spirit is limited by the Father and not Omnipresent.

Hi Joey, I sneaked back in on raptureready. incognito

[fredtgreco]

It is the teaching of Dispensationalism that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer that is removed from the earth. But it is not the teaching of Dispensationalism that this is result of Him only dwelling in believers. Neither Chafer, nor Ryrie nor other Dispensationalists that I have read believe this.

The person who stated this does not even represent Dispensationalism (Scofield, Classic or Progressive varieties)

[historyb]

Originally posted by Slippery
"IMO The Holy Spirit is only in the believer, not everywhere. His power has been limited by the Father in what He can do through and in partnership with the believer. The Restrainer of evil in the world is taken out at the rapture because the believer no longer is here to contain that Spirit. Once people begin to be saved tehy will be killed because satan know he must keep the Holy Spirit from gaining ground."

I heard this a lot when I was in the Assembly of God churches and even heard it being espoused on TBN. I can vaguely remember the pastor of that church give a sermon on this very thing. So it is out there and when I was a dispensationalist this seemed a common belief, yet not discussed much.

[Edited on 12-16-2005 by historyb]

[ReformedWretch]

This is the general Dispensationalist line of thinking, its just that the person whom I quote followed this line of thinking to its logical conclusion and states that the Holy Spirit is limited by the Father and not Omnipresent.

I agree with this!

As a former hardcore dispensationalists I was more concerned with proving the rapture than anything else. All other doctrine and teachings took a back seat to making certain that I could prove without any doubt that the rapture was a biblical teaching. No one was going to steal my "blesses hope".

Fred, this is what so many dispie teachers do not realize. While they may not draw these conclusions, many of their flock do indeed, and some draw worse conclusions. The "rapture" is seen alongside grace, redemption, and mercy and often times it is elevated above it! Many dispie disciples even believe in partial raptures meaning that you are taken when you are good enough to go! There are numerous "raptures" in the tribulation as people prepare themselves with good works in order to get their spot in line.

While the main teachers of dispie thought may not be as wacky to say some of these things, their concentration on the rapture/escape of the wrath to come have their followers creating all sorts of heretical theories just to solidify the absolute of this catching away.

[fredtgreco]

Adam,

I know the importance of the "rapture" to the average Dispensationalist. I agree completely with you there. All I am saying is that classic Dispensationalism does not see the Holy Spirit as being limited in any way. Chafer himself says that the Holy Spirit is omnipresent (as one of the attributes of God, I.401). Classic Dispensationalism sees the rapture occuring as a "subset" of the removal of the Spirit. The Spirit is removed from the world, and that requires the removal of all believers as well. It does not see the removal of believers as the complete removal of the Holy Spirit.

[ReformedWretch]

I'm sure your right, but should or do these teachers such as Chafer hold any responsability to try and correct their followers?

[raderag]

Originally posted by houseparent
I'm sure your right, but should or do these teachers such as Chafer hold any responsability to try and correct their followers?

About as much as Calvin has for the Federal Vision error.

Hint (he's dead).

[ReformedWretch]

Errr well...you know what I mean. If today's Dispy teachers know what is being taughunder the banner of dispensationalism shouldn't the speak out against it?

[Dan....]

Originally posted by houseparent
Errr well...you know what I mean. If today's Dispy teachers know what is being taughunder the banner of dispensationalism shouldn't the speak out against it?

To be fair, are those who would espouse such unorthodox ideologies consulting with their pastors, or are they gleaning their theology from internet articles and forums?

[Edited on 12-16-2005 by Dan....]

[ReformedWretch]

Good question, but I would think that just as solid reformed ministers speak out against error, even if they didn't personally preach it, so should dispie pastors and leaders. For example, Pat Robertson, Billy Graham, Chuck Smith,etc, could do a series on "End times errors".

[Edited on 12-16-2005 by houseparent]

[Anton Bruckner]

Originally posted by Dan....

To be fair, are those who would espouse such unorthodox ideologies consulting with their pastors, or are they gleaning their theology from internet articles and forums?

[Edited on 12-16-2005 by Dan....]

actually its standard teaching that the Holy Spirit is removed from the world at the rapture. Now its modified, in that, His influence is reduced.

Here's an excerpt from a Dispensationalist Ministry.
"
The second meaning for apostasy in this verse is to depart, and may be a reference to the rapture. The forces of the Antichrist are restrained on Earth until the Holy Spirit which dwells within God's Church is removed by the rapture. With Christ's followers removed from the scene, the Antichrist will be released to usher in the world's new age religion with all of its evils."
http://contenderministries.org/prophecy/rapturetrib.php

[Edited on 12-16-2005 by Slippery]

[turmeric]

This is where anabaptism can lead. Part of the problem is the anti-authoritarian and non-credal nature of dispie churches, that allow individual members of the flock to believe any number of weird things privately which would horrify their pastors. I never heard this particular doctrine preached, but the Internet seems to be bringing a lot of creeeepy things to light.

[Edited on 12-16-2005 by turmeric]

[Dan....]

actually its standard teaching that the Holy Spirit is removed from the world at the rapture. Now its modified, in that, His influence is reduced.

Here's an excerpt from a Dispensationalist Ministry.
"
The second meaning for apostasy in this verse is to depart, and may be a reference to the rapture. The forces of the Antichrist are restrained on Earth until the Holy Spirit which dwells within God's Church is removed by the rapture. With Christ's followers removed from the scene, the Antichrist will be released to usher in the world's new age religion with all of its evils."
http://contenderministries.org/prophecy/rapturetrib.php

[Edited on 12-16-2005 by Slippery]

I don't know who contender Ministries is. But here are a couple of prominent dispensational organizations, whose statements on the Holy Spirit are as follows:

Fundamental Baptist Fellowship:

http://www.f-b-f.org/WebMan/Article....649&Count=true

Deity of the Holy Spirit
Attributes. The Scriptures clearly teach the Holy Spirit's omnipresence (Ps. 139:7), omniscience (1 Cor. 2:10, 11), creative omnipotence (Luke 1:35; Rom. 8:11) and eternality (Heb. 9:14).

Dallas Theological Seminary:

http://www.dts.edu/aboutdts/fulldoctrinalstatement.aspx

Article XII"”THE HOLY SPIRIT
We believe that the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the blessed Trinity, though omnipresent from all eternity, took up His abode in the world in a special sense on the day of Pentecost according to the divine promise, dwells in every believer, and by His baptism unites all to Christ in one body, and that He, as the Indwelling One, is the source of all power and all acceptable worship and service. We believe that He never takes His departure from the church, nor from the feeblest of the saints, but is ever present to testify of Christ; seeking to occupy believers with Him and not with themselves nor with their experiences. We believe that His abode in the world in this special sense will cease when Christ comes to receive His own at the completion of the church (John 14:16"“17; 16:7"“15; 1 Cor. 6:19; Eph. 2:22; 2 Thess. 2:7).

(Emphasis mine.)

Especially note the highlighted portion of the second quote. It seems the unorthodox position you quoted in the first post is a confused misunderstanding of what the classical dispensational teachers actually teach.

[Edited on 12-16-2005 by Dan....]

[fredtgreco]

Originally posted by Slippery

actually its standard teaching that the Holy Spirit is removed from the world at the rapture. Now its modified, in that, His influence is reduced.

Here's an excerpt from a Dispensationalist Ministry.
"
The second meaning for apostasy in this verse is to depart, and may be a reference to the rapture. The forces of the Antichrist are restrained on Earth until the Holy Spirit which dwells within God's Church is removed by the rapture. With Christ's followers removed from the scene, the Antichrist will be released to usher in the world's new age religion with all of its evils."
http://contenderministries.org/prophecy/rapturetrib.php

[Edited on 12-16-2005 by Slippery]

Keon,

There are two things going on here:

1. The concept of the secret rapture, in which all Christians are raptured and the Holy Spirit that indwells them is no longer in the world.

2. The concept that the Holy Spirit is nowhere except in Christians (i.e. He is not omnipresent).

Classic Dispensationalism affirms #1, but not #2. #2 is wacko (to use a technical systematics term).

[Dan....]

Originally posted by fredtgreco

Keon,

There are two things going on here:

1. The concept of the secret rapture, in which all Christians are raptured and the Holy Spirit that indwells them is no longer in the world.

2. The concept that the Holy Spirit is nowhere except in Christians (i.e. He is not omnipresent).

Classic Dispensationalism affirms #1, but not #2. #2 is wacko (to use a technical systematics term).

Fred,

Just to clarify the first of the above (which I know you understand, but might not be clear to all) :

When they say that "the Holy Spirit that indwells them is no longer in the world", they are not denying His omni-presence, but are only saying that His presence will no longer be manifest throughout the world in the same manner as it has been throughout the church age.

[Edited on 12-16-2005 by Dan....]

[fredtgreco]

Yes. The Holy Spirit cannot cease to be omnipresent any more than He could cease to be holy, or just, or omnipotent.

But according to Dispensationalism, in the post-rapture period, He is no longer present in His specific role as *restrainer* of evil.

[C. Matthew McMahon]

Originally posted by fredtgreco

Keon,

There are two things going on here:

1. The concept of the secret rapture, in which all Christians are raptured and the Holy Spirit that indwells them is no longer in the world.

2. The concept that the Holy Spirit is nowhere except in Christians (i.e. He is not omnipresent).

Classic Dispensationalism affirms #1, but not #2. #2 is wacko (to use a technical systematics term).

Fred is right. However, for the restrainer to be removed, He (i.e. the Holy Spirit) is removed in action not in presence, according to Dispy teaching. Chafer, for example, would not say what this fellow is saying as to the doctrine of God.