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John
Member
Christ Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Salt Lake City, Utah
www.christpres.net

Thanks for sharing this! My Father(thanks to God using me) and I are the only non- dispensational Presbyterian Calvinists in my family, It will be great to get a hold of this. I have recently purchased amaizing grace and enjoyed that as well. I'll put the two videos together along with a personal write up and hope that God uses it to Reform my family.

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~ Charles Stephen Barribeau ~
Christ Presbyterian Church , OPC (They sing alot of Psalms!)
Original Westminster Standards (I need to study more...)
The Puritans were best! Also... I NEED TO READ MORE!!!
Philipians1:29(KJV) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Janesville, Wisconsin (In the fellowship of Bob Vigneault and Matt+Megan Meisberger)

Mmmm. No one sees the problem with the videos statement about the Scofield Reference Bible (which I do not use btw)? We have the Reformation Study Bible by R.C. Sproul. I think it could make some reformed Christians just as lazy as some dispensational Christians.

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Bill Brown
Elder
Reformed Baptist
Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
Visit my BLOG Theology for the Rest of Us

Yeah, I didn't like the dig against Scofield. It makes it sound like he is the source of all that is evil and unholy in this world

Besides, the Oxford Scofield Bibles are the highest quality, best produced cheap Bibles around (I mean physically not theologically)!

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Mark Maney
Edmonton Chinese Baptist Church
Master of Theological Studies
Master of Arts (Cross Cultural)
Trinity Western University, ACTS Seminaries
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

I'm not saying the video wasn't right in criticizing the Scofield Reference Bible. But if that's a criticism used against dispensationalism he need look in the reformed backyard for the same thing.

btw I am not defending dispensationalism.

Yeah, but they want to save the meat of the argument for when it is released, and anyways the most prominent response I hear from dispensationalists regarding my rejection of the physical national Isrealite kingdom millenial reign is that I am reading things into the texts when they claim that they know the exact fulfillments of prophecys and yet there "fulfillments" are no where stated in scripture itself haha. Sometimes it is hard to love weakness...

Charlie, just remember that not every reformed believer is a theology wonk like us nerds here on the PB. Laziness in theology is more normative than we might to like to think.

And there are those of us who study it hard and still see a future millennium and admit we don't have prophecy figured out. Who does?

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For the Glory of our King,
Joe Johnson
Slave of Christ, husband, father, Preacherboy at Cornerstone Community Church, Escanaba, MI. and TMS graduate. Personal website - SoundLife.org

I do not know, and I do not say, that a person cannot believe in Revelation and in evolution, too, for a man may believe that which is infinitely wise and also that which is only asinine. ~ CHS

Kim Riddlesberger! Haven't you read "A Case for Amillennialism"? It's good stuff!

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sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

Riddlebarger's book is good for an Amil. position...the only trouble with it is it's Amil., and not post.

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soli Deo gloria!
~Nicholas~ Ordained Pastor
Member, Fulton PCA; GPTS Student
Christians are like snow covered dung; it is the purity of the covering which the Father sees. -Luther-
There is nothing more ugly than a Christian orthodoxy without understanding or without compassion.
-Francis Schaeffer-

yeah herald that's true, and to nicnap, the postmil position is cool, but if it is the right then I think it'll take like 500 more years at the rate we are progressing now, although I believe we are experiencing the beginnings of a revival

I just thought that laying Dispensationlism at the feet of Scofield was a little extreme. For example, Dispensationalism was already a key factor in the beginnings of the Pentecostal movement and would continue to be a force in the movment regardless of Scofield. However, Scofield definitley influenced non-Pentecostal forms of Christianity.

The popularization of dispensationalism in America was through the Scofield Bible. That may have been what they were driving at. I did find it interesting that Darby's views of the church resembled the Mormon views of the church.

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Chris Thomas | SBC-Founders | Fairbanks, AK

"Whatever the cause, the Calvinists were the only fighting Protestants. It was they whose faith gave them courage to stand up for the Reformation. In England, Scotland, France, Holland, they,... did the work, and but for them the Reformation would have been crushed... If it had not been for Calvinists,... and whatever you like to call them, the Pope and Philip would have won, and we should either be Papists or Socialists." ~ Sir John Skelton

Great video. Good chat. Personally, I would have to say that if the pentecostal movement--and its previous influence--failed to bring a theological acquisition for Dispensationalism, Scofield definitely was a backdrop for its success.

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Julio Martinez Jr.
Member of Grace Presbyterian Church (PCA)
My Blog
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge;
because you have rejected knowledge,
I reject you from being a priest to me.
And since you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children." Hosea 4:6, ESV

Folks, don't tell me punctuation and capitalization aren't important - I gleaned the following humorous statement from this thread;

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The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Thanks for sharing

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Martin - Reformed
Husband to the most godly, honorable and loyal wife Line
Searching for a Church
Webpage www.5solas.dk
Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
Soli Deo Gloria

Not to mention the republication of the Geneva Bible DeMar was involved in recently republishing, which is generally regarded as the original study Bible. But to give him the benefit of the doubt maybe he makes a distinction later on that isn't apparent in this excerpt.

I think everyone would agree that the Scofield Reference Bible was a major factor in popularizing dispensationalism, especially among ordinary church members. The Niagra Bible Conferences had earlier popularized it among preachers.

Although I'm sure you can find an example in some internet forum, it's also a big mistake to assume that all or even most dispys today endorse every note in the original Scofield Bible. If you assume that, the debate is going to go nowhere. There are many flavors or varieties of dispensationalism just as there are many different views among covenant theologians e.g. "pessimistic" amil, optimistic amil, theonomic postmillenialism, pietistic (revivalistic) postmillenialism. Add to this the RB view of covenant theology, the WCF view, the viper in covenant diapers view, advocacy of paedocommunion by some covenant theologians, etc.

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Christian
One Pilgrims Progress

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Amber
South Woods Baptist Church http://southwoodsbc.org/
wife of Tyler; mother of Ashley, Nathaniel, Isaac, Jeremiah
O send out Your light and Your truth, let them lead me; let them bring me to Your holy hill and to Your dwelling places. Then I will go to the altar of God, to God my exceeding joy; and upon the lyre I shall praise You, O God, my God. Psalm 43:3

Love all your descriptions of yourself Charlie. So does your OPC sing only psalms. I know there are a few. Love that. The best for me was when I was in a Free Pres Church of Scotland in London and in a solid white slab stone building and they sing the psalms acapella. Sounded lie I was in heaven.

What do you think of the dif between strict subscriptionist and full subscriptionist and total subscriptionist terms if you have heard them. Seems like everyone wants a special meaning to get away from just saying I hold to it all or I don't.

I hope the Planet church is a good message to the masses so they have a chance to learn of God's sovereignty and we can begin to reform the professing Christians and churches. What a blessing and revival that would be. MAy even have an effect on our govt and country!
In His Service,
Don Partridge Seattle Wa. PCA

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DonP

I think the video looks like a good one. Yes, the rise of Dispensationalism to the masses was influenced by Scofield. It is an interesting story. I would like to hear the whole part of the message about Scofield. That was just one line. As an owner of two Scofields, they are a piece of history. And an interesting one.

As Martin Luther's brother used to say, "I'd rather be ruled by a Dispensationalist than a Liberal anyday!"

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Timothy Johnson
First United Presbyterian of Moline
PCUSA (Yea, I know)
Theology/Philosophy Sunday School Teacher
Davenport, IA

Amen! And, frankly folks, I would rather send my kids to a good dispensational college than most of the so-called Reformed ones. It is easier moving a dispi into the Reformed camp than it is to convince a jaundiced former-conservative-now-liberal of the truth of inerrancy.

I also purchased the MOVIE "Amazing Grace" and LOVED it. I am looking forward to this one on dispensationalism and plan to give it to my kids just as I did "Amazing Grace."

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Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I'm not. If it's as virulent about dispensationalism as a whole as it is against Scofield, I don't want it in my house. But many are quick to make a straw abominable snow man out of dispensationalism...

This video is a needed critique of dispensational churches. Historical Premillinnialist George Eldon Ladd also has problems with the Pretribulational aspect of Dispensational Premillennialism.

Millennial Dreams

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Carol
Plant City, Florida


That I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.
Philippians 3:8,9

http://gettingoffthenicenesstreadmill.blogspot.com/

Scofield is an easy whiping boy becuse of his unsavory pastbackwhen I was a Dispensationalist I told one of my friends I prefered Scofield's interpretation of The parabl of The Leaven and she proceeded to tell me for the next 15 minutes about what an awfull drunk no good cheat and swindler he was. I just think people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones. Also it's kind of discooncerting that most of the people fighting Dispensationalism on an popular level are the Christian Reconstrctionists and Postmils. I favour Postmillinialism but not the Gary North R.J. Rushdoony brand. Also a lot of this attacking of dispensationalism seems like a Trojan Horse to get pweople to reject Dispensationalism and become preterists now I am all for that () I just feel that sometimes it seems a little too one sided towards The Postmills.

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Aaron
Independent Baptist
Holland MI

Where have you been? I hardly know any living post mils.

I could care less where one ends up. I just want them out of disp, out of mod pre-mil and to understand the covenant and that we are the Israel of promise.

If not they miss too much of God and mi-interpret most of scripture.

I have "Amazing Grace" and "Marks of a cult" so am looking forward to getting this to.

me too

I have read a lot of Kick and used to hang around with The American Vision crowd. Also one of my friends is a big Joe Morecraft III fan (Morecraft is Postmil). Also Francis Nigel Lee who is an Historicist and Postmilinalist. I should rephrase what I said. It's the Christian Reconstructionism that frightens me. I favor Postmillinalism (The Hodges Warfield type) with a Preterist interpretation of Revelation and Matthew 24. So there are living Postmils there just are not many "traditional" Postmils that are vocal about it it's just that mostly Theonomic Postmils are the most vocal about there view (do inpart I feel from an large deal of suppourt from The Relgious right). (Although Greg Strawbridge did engage in a debate a while back over Millennial views). That Christian Reconsturtionism s the mirror error of the Dispensationalitst instead of bifurcating the people of god it conflates the covenants. I know but that's my

We should meet. Then you'd know one more.

-----Added 3/31/2009 at 05:36:45 EST-----

Concerning the reference to the Scofield Study Bible and those who think it unwise to attack, since we also have the Geneva Bible (and now the New Geneva Study Bible, Reformation Study Bible, Spirit of the Reformation Study Bible, etc, etc):

An important point to make is how much the Scofield Study Bible got wrong. Not all Study Bibles are created equal.

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Seth Stark
Member, Communion Presbyterian Church (ARP), Irvine, CA
Biola University, Graduate Student, M.A. - Science and Religion
Seth's Blog

If I remember correctly, dispensational teaching started when an English pastor (I think his name was Darby) made a sermon series from a congregational members dreams. This package was unheard of in Church doctrine before the 1840's. Cyrus helped spread the virus.

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Rich Koster
1689'er
Browns Mills NJ USA
Often Goofy Reformed Eccentric
Romans 7:14-25

Oh yeah you hang with the intellectual crowd.

And yes Reconstructionists I tend to avoid too.
I think they are dying out.

Yes I wonder if they are reconstructionists because they are Post Mil or they are post mil because they became reconstructionist.

I just don't want to see them pretorist if they are post mil

Post mil who are not reconstructionist are fine, esp the Puritan Hope type or even stronger. As long as they don't think God was dealing with national Israel primarily and still has plans for them.

what we see today is a "mix and match" sort of theology that takes a little from the Darby camp and a little from the Calvin camp and a little from the Arminius camp. The result as Dr DeMar mentioned is a bunch of people that depend on someone's interpretation and therefore don't know what the Bible really says or how to interpret it. This statement is especially true for the lazy person who won't read and study for themselves, they deserve what they get.

The real dis-service however is to the serious Bible student who is trying to discern truth from error.

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Rangerus
Southern Baptist
Austin, TX
Teacher and Volunteer
1689 LBCF & BF&M 2000

Bill,

That was the first thing that came to my mind. Understanding the depth of Calvinism, for example, is premised upon understanding Trinitarianism and Chalcedonian Orthodoxy - how many people actually hammer out the expansive meaning and depth of these things "on their own with the help of the Holy Spirit?"

God places in the Church many with variant gifts, the gift of interpretation is given to some more than others, and Scripture says that "no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation." 2 Peter 1:20

So, stating that the Scofield Bible presents a problem where understanding Scripture is dependent upon another man essentially serving as one's priest, is a weak argument to me, when we are all indebted to the work of other Christians without which we can't make much progress if every individual has to hammer out every detail for himself.

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Thomas Weddle
Member, Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church
Evansville, Indiana

[quote=Thomas2007;586288]What verse is that gift from? Is this interpretation of tongues?

Would that gift give them a private interpretation or better one than someone else?

Trying to get your meaning here

The real issue with Dispys is that the vast majority of them have no idea that there is any other viewpoint other than theirs. They just take what their pastors and Sunday school teachers tell them (not to mention Christian TV and radio) as solid fact.

I told a pastor-friend of mine, who has an MDiv from DTS (btw), that I was a postmillennialist. He responded, "So, you think the Church will actually go through the tribulation? When do you believe the rapture will take place?"

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Jim Ulam
Bethany Bible Fellowship (Non-denominational)
Westminster, CA

"From now on, ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put" - Winston Churchill