Gen 13:14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

It seems clear that its talking about the physical land that Abraham was able to see, looking in all directions. How are these verses to be understood, particularly 'to thy seed for ever'?

__________________
B.Howes
Framingham, MA

Israel to this day has apostatized the God of the scriptures...........the remnant, the Israel of God, will one day possess everything w/ Him who is even now, high and lifted up.

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Scott Bushey
Husband to Tina, father to Nicole, Danielle and Zoe
Member First Presbyterian Church of Margate PCA

The land promises are dual. There was a physical reality of them but they pointed to the greater reality of the land of the kingdom of God in eternity. This is a proof positive text that God doesn’t just work with us in Words but attaches to them physical realities that condescend to our weakness, most prominently shown in God incarnate. Why didn’t God just speak immediately to everyone via the Spirit the truth, why use paper and ink, real physical circumcision, water, bread and wine?

God is showing, contra Gnostic dualism, that it is not bad physical good spirit, but that the physical is good originally, we are embodied souls not misty spirits only. Our ultimate hope lies not in a ethereal spiritual realm, but in a REAL resurrected body and earth. It is as before the fall, all that God created is very good, and it is washed with Christ’s real blood. The Christian hope, Abraham as well here, as Paul points out is in a very real resurrection some day, reunited with our loved ones in body and soul. For Christ’s real physical body has risen. We should not think this disjointedly, Christ risen and some day we to. Rather Christ the head has certainly risen, and we the body certainly ARE following. The resurrection is not only a certainty but an increasingly dawning reality.

We read in the NT commentary on the OT: Hebrews 11:9-10, "By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was LOOKING FORWARD to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God."

Blessings,

Ldh

__________________
Larry Hughes
Geologist
Tates Creek PCA
Lexington, KY
PCA

Galatians 4:29, "But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also."

I agree that there was a dual promise, as evidenced by the verses in Heb 11. I'd like to focus, though, on the physical land promise and how/why that promise has been done away with. I realize that done away with is probably not the best way to describe it because the promise was fulfilled in Christ, and something better has replaced it, but in one sense it seems it has been done away with. The people of Israel at one time had a 'right' to build homes on the land, raise their children, etc. It was there land, just like the land I live on is mine - the police will come to my aid if somebody trespasses on my land, vandilizes it, etc.

Going back to my original post, and focusing just on the land promise, God promised Abraham and his seed all the land (physical) that Abraham saw when he looked in all directions.

Psa 105:42 For he remembered his holy promise, and Abraham his servant.
Psa 105:43 And he brought forth his people with joy, and his chosen with gladness:
Psa 105:44 And gave them the lands of the heathen: and they inherited the labour of the people;
Psa 105:45 That they might observe his statutes, and keep his laws. Praise ye the LORD.

Around 400 years later, God brought the people of Israel out of Egypt and gave them the lands of the heathen, just as He had promised to Abraham. God promised them the land, it was promised to them forever, and God 'made good on' His promise.

How are we to understand the term "for ever", with regard to just the physical land of Israel? If the land was promised to Abraham and His seed forever, but its only their land from the time of Abraham up until the cross, how is it (the land) given to the seed forever?

Is the land promise conditional upon Israel's obedience? Did they lose all right to the land when they rejected Jesus? Did the remnant that followed Jesus also lose any right to the land, because of the unregenerate Israel's rejection of the Messiah (keeping in mind, of course, that the remnant could probably care less anymore about the land, knowing they had a better one awaiting for them)?

Psa 105:45 That they might observe his statutes, and keep his laws. Praise ye the LORD.

One of the reasons they were brought into the land was so that they could observe his statues, and keep His laws. If this is referring to the ceremonial law, which as the book of Hebrews makes clear was done away with, then that purpose for having the land doesn't exist anymore. There's no more need to use the land for sacrifices, etc. Since the land isn't used for that purpose anymore, does that somehow justify not considering the land promise as being forever?

If I think in terms of a land deed, God had promised Abraham's seed the land forever. When Jesus came, the majority of Israel rejected Jesus, but what about those who didn't. What about those Israelites, the remnant, (like Paul, Peter, etc) who believed and repented? The land that was promised to them (Abraham's seed) forever. Why would they not be entitled to the land that was promised?

Thinking it through,

Bob

That's the dual nature of it. The forever is the land won by Christ. Christ came and fulfilled the Law, this kingdom is ours by grace through Him. Through Isaac the Seed, Christ came, the King who would fulfill the Law and save His people. These people WILL inherit the land and have it forever. Right now we lie in the eschatalogical tension of now and not yet, faith, faith's essences is escahtalogical.

The real real estate of Israel was a shadow of the still forth coming, but it was fulfilled in Christ. Christ fulfills the Law of all kinds. Fallen man could not produce the king who would do this, yet through the Seed, the incarnation, God came to do what man could not do.

The forever is still God's promise, it is NOT here now. You have to keep in mind that though the first advent came and passed the second advent lies ahead.

Prophecy by various prophets can be viewed differently by from different time angles if you will but yet be the same, in part or whole of the whole prophecy. The key element to prophecy is not “when and how” but the certitude of it happening regardless of “when”. Certitude, God said and thus IT WILL HAPPEN CERTAINLY, is the primary. This is why Jesus said for example why a thing was done, “To fulfill the WORD of God” or God’s Word MUST happen as it is truth, or similar such phrases.

When looking backward or forward at a series of data already compiled and finished in terms of action completed in the past and now presented as one unit in time, it is difficult to not confuse the picture one is seeing. An example of this principle can be seen by understanding actual biblical prophesies. The prophet would see in one singular vision everything in time and space past, present and future in a particular way, then another prophet from a differing vantage point may see the same but slightly different. It WILL happen, when is irrelevant. What the prophet would see depended upon their perspective of the vision shown to them. For example in the Book of Daniel the major kingdoms of the beast were seen AT that point of time and space as two having been and one yet to come and as separate distinct visions of animals in a linear fashion. Like a line up at a police identification line up. If I recall correctly; the order was a separated and read as lion, bear and then leopard. Each symbolic of one of three historic kingdoms and relevant to the time frame. Yet in John’s revelation much further down the road in chapter 13 it is one single amalgamated beast and the stated order is leopard, bear and lion, but not linear, rather as one visual beast image if you will. Which makes sense verbally given the time frame even though visually it is one unit of data being viewed. John saw them as one beast visually. Here’s the point as it relates to seeing evidence. What did John see? Some kind of funky mythical looking leopard, bear and lion beast, like out of Greek mythology, as some suppose? No, his vision saw ALL the data at once, in one singular view, one dimensional if you will, and in human language he described the one beast whose roots were in the same singular authority and power of the antichrist of the devil and his varied form of kingdoms, that is the serpents seed (children of the law) opposing the woman’s/the Christ/the Seed (and children of the promise), yet manifested in three separate beasts of earthly authority (the devil manifesting his kingdom on earth in many ways over time and space, he tosses old used up kingdoms and people aside like so much toilet paper), and still further John sees it given to him as a single merged picture of the three. Kind of like if you could view a picture of me over top of my dog over top of another picture of cat, all mingling as one picture yet three entities and could be described as the head of a man, with the mouth of a dog and the eyes of a cat. It’s simply a brief way of capturing the entire idea connected together, someone from a side view might see the three separated. The data stream, to use a modern term, is one packet communicating many things in many times all at once, a base understanding of the picture is necessary, else a true picture may be rendered false.

So Abraham could see the dual nature of the land promise, yet there was an earthly temporary manifestation of it and simultaneously the eternal fulfillment of it as well. The earthly gives way to the eternal, the Law is fulfilled in Christ in His first advent and will consummate the finality of that promise in the second advent.

But the point is to feed and strengthen faith will we suffer and are persecuted to varying degrees in the here and now with the devil’s kingdom which appears at times to be winning and not with “when will this happen” so that I may look for signs, today, tomorrow a thousand years from now – but rather that it WILL happen as said when it will happen. That keeps the faithful in the faith by strengthening it. If I go looking for signs of glory here and now and don’t find them, I will loose the faith. But if I know IT WILL HAPPEN, perhaps not in my time, I still have the faith being passed down every generation. Eventually one generation will be alive here on earth to see the second advent, and we will be with them.

Thus, the land promises of earthly land was temporary but with a casting or shadow of the eternal certainty that has come in the first advent and will consummate in the second advent. And the point of the promise being a promise from God with certainty connects with the way to understand biblical prophesy, not when, not why not now, not why don’t I see it now, but the certitude of what God has said will be done, has been done and is being done. It’s like Augustine said, God has spoken ALREADY ALL that WILL be done in one Word, its just working out in time and space as we view it.

I hope that helps and doesn’t confuse.

L

Larry,
Thanks for your response. Its very helpful.

Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

If we focus just on the Genesis account of the promise made to Abraham, its difficult to see any evidence of the truth revealed in Hebrews 11:9,10. ie., that he was looking for a city which hath foundations, etc. Its true, but we don't find it out until centuries later when the book of Hebrews was written. Can you think of any verses in the OT (I can't off hand) that teach this about Abraham, that express the same thing as Hebrew 11:10?

I ask this because I'm wondering if there's any way an OT saint could/would/should have known that the land promise made to Abraham didn't just refer to the literal land of Canaan.

bob,
Tina and I looked over the book of Joel this evening; specifically ch 2 and 3. Give that a look see..........

Thanks.

I can be thick as molasses sometimes. I read it and ...

The land promise to Abraham seems to be unconditional but Deut 28 and 30 seem to make it conditional upon obedience...am I missing something?

__________________
Richard
CofE
UK

I would say that at this time the church is advancing the kingdom through the gospel. Abraham's children consist of those of his Seed. We, his children, are now kings and priests by virtue of Jesus having all authority. The 'promised land', the earth, is ours already and not yet.

__________________
David Cronkhite, Elder
Pasadena United Reformed Church

"I count myself one of the number of those
who write as they learn, and learn as they write."

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.
So if there is a physical land in view, then at the very least it could be said that noone is entitled to that land apart from Jesus.
Also, in Romans 4:13 Paul tells us that the inheritance of Abraham was actually the whole world.
(I'm a former dispensationalist who wrestles with this stuff a lot. I'm pretty sure the land in the OT functions the same way as the temple does in the OT. Not as a promise of the same thing only bigger, better, etc. But as a promise of something like it but different in very significant ways.)

Greg

__________________
Greg Bednarchik
Sovereign Grace Church
(part of Sovereign Grace Ministries)
Cherry Hill NJ

As said above, Hebrews 11:9-10, 16

__________________
Rev. Andrew J. Barnes
Husband of Dena
Father of Oliver
Master of Bruce
Pastor of Tchula Presbyterian Church

What can I say, I like blogs!

1Ch 23:13 The sons of Amram; Aaron and Moses: and Aaron was separated, that he should sanctify the most holy things, he and his sons for ever, to burn incense before the LORD, to minister unto him, and to bless in his name for ever.

Num 18:8 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, by an ordinance for ever.

Did Aaronic Priesthood last for ever? NO. The same with land promises, as Larry pointed out. The Aaronic Priesthood was superceeded by the Priesthood of Christ. Everything in scripture points and leads up to Christ. God isn't into letting carnal blessings become the ultimate blessings.

__________________
~Keon Garraway~ Brooklyn, NY Member of Franklin Square OPC

Love for God demonstrated by the love for our children in giving them a God centered education is the only hope for our country. by David Morrow
Pslam 71:20 [Thou], which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

I think this cuts to the heart of the matter. The New Testament tells us that the primary receipients of the promises to Abraham are not the physical decendents of Abraham but rather Jesus Christ and all those who have faith in him.

__________________
Mark
Independent baptist
Singapore

Keon,
Thanks. That's very helpful when thinking about promises made being forever, especially while keeping in mind what Hebrews says.
Bob

Thanks, guys.

Paul,
You'd make a good teacher, you make me think. I agree with the continuity you're pointing out, and I know there's a connection between that and the land promise question being discussed, but the carrot stick seems just out of my reach.
Continuing to think about it so I can grab that elusive carrot stick,
Bob

Just something to think about.

__________________
Conscience may lash us, but it cannot replenish a languishing life. Conscience may be God's word and minister to you, telling you of your faults and your follies and your destitution. It may point out, but it will never supply you. Christ must give you new life. Hart has well expressed it: "He to the feeble and the faint, His mighty aid makes known; and when their languid life is spent, supplies it with His own." - J. K. Popham

I think the AV makes it clearer...

And...

Does not 'all things' include the land promised to Abraham?

__________________


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A few things to keep in mind re. "land" promises.

1) There was a place, on the ground, that the patriarchs were being promised--a place for the nation they were bringing forth to settle, so that the Messiah would come forth of the flesh.

2) A linguistic consideration: the word for "earth" and "land" is the same; it requires some interpretive thought to understand whether the reference is to "dirt", to a plot, to a national extent, or to the whole world--or whether the word could have a telescoping meaning.

3) The patriarchs themselves, and all the children of faith, were looking for something more than could be seen with the eyes, and walked on by feet.

4) If Israel the nation had been a faithful people, within only a few generations (100 years?) the tiny confines of the Land of Promise would have been burst by sheer population boom. This is proof that the concept of "the land" could itself have only been a "seed" promise. Which is why we understand further, that the ultimate referent of the "land" is the whole world. Where else is number of all the "sand of the seashore" going to dwell?

5) Ezekiel's depiction is extremely idealistic. Clarence Larkin and the other "diagramers" have given us all a pretty little picture of what this might look like if literally scratched out on the ground. This Old Testament description comes short of idealizing the whole "world" with sweet parallel lines drawn on it, and all the world carved up between the tribes. On the other hand, it does present the blowing away of the old land confines, and the "filling" of much of the known "world" (one which most of the original readers would have been familar with) by a restored Israel.

6) Thus, since the national purpose of Israel in redemptive history has been totally fulfilled and accomplished in Jesus, we need to see this passage as being fulfilled in the gospel mission of subduing the whole world unto the Messianic reign of King Jesus, which is for us a present reality. If the "definite fulfillment in the future" (mentioned in the quote above) is conceived as something related to a specific national or ethnic identity, or to a definite middle-eastern tract of land, I have to disagree. But if it implies that we are still awaiting the full outworking and blessing of Jesus' present reign, then I would grant the conclusion.

__________________
Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI


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