I did not know where to post this but I believe the issue deals with dispensationalism and Covenant Theology.

John was sent as a fore-runner to Christ. I believe it is clear that John was a believer. And here is where I have a question about John's baptism.

In Acts 19 Luke tells us that those who had received John's baptism had not received that baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Did the people that responded to John's message not looking forward to their promised Messiah? If not then what is the purpose of repenting from sin in John's gopsel without turning to promised Christ? Or is this simply an example of an incident where these mean never truly exhibited true faith?

I understand that Pentecost had not taken place when they believed but did the Holy Spirit not regenerate them when they received John's baptism? I guess a better understanding of how the Holy Spirit indwelt believers in the Old Covenant would be helpful to this conversation.

__________________
Brandon Addison

Member- Michiana Covenant Presbyterian Church
Granger, IN ([url]http://www.michianacovenant.org/[/url])

Attending and serving the youth @- Christ Church Pasadena Pasadena, CA ([url]www.christchurch.la[/url])

Do I maybe need to clarify my questions more?! I am really battling with this and I know there are answers. Even just point me to exegetical resources. If I could get any help I would appreciate it :bigsmile:

Brandon,

You might try reading 'THE BAPTISM OF JOHN' AND THE FIERY BELIEVER APOLLOS -- by Dr. F.N. Lee.

__________________
Jeff Bartel
Mechanical Engineer
Member - Trinity Reformed Church - RPCNA

"To believe in the power of man in the work of regeneration is the great heresy of Rome, and from that error has come the ruin of the Church. Conversion proceeds from the grace of God alone, and the system which ascribes it partly to man and partly to God is worse than Pelagianism" (The Reformation in England (London, 1962), Vol. 1, p. 98)

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Also Rebaptism Impossible! (Acts 19:1-7) by Francis Nigel Lee.

Regeneration, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the OT believer -

This may help:

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Baptism...izationLaw.htm

__________________
C. Matthew McMahon, Ph.D. (Pot hole Digger)
John 5:39, "...search the Scriptures..."

Dr. C. Matthew McMahon.com, www.apuritansmind.com and www.puritanpublications.com
Member - Christ Presbyterian Church

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I recently asked a pastor of a PCA church I have been attending this same question and I was surprised by his response.

He stated that the men baptised into John's baptism were truly regenerated at John's baptism. But in order to be filled with the Spirit, they needed to have the baptism of Jesus Christ. I asked if they would have gone to be with Christ had they died and he answered with what I understood as an affirmitive answer.

Now to me that sounds like a charismatic response. A second blessing after being a believer. It is very possible that I have mis-understood what the pastor was saying but

Any thoughts?

There are only some 4 times where Acts records an extraordinary Spirit baptism. This is not normative, either for the church in Acts, or for today. Therefore, we need to study the incidents carefully to see what was significant enough about the incidents that God demonstrated his power in an extraordinary way.

The pastor you spoke with was probably not appealing to a "second blessing" but to the fact that Christians need a Christian baptism, a baptism by the Lord Jesus. You were baptized by the Lord Jesus. Did you know that? He actually baptized you inwardly with his Spirit in regeneration. He outwardly baptized you by his church.

The believers in Ephesus were already an anomaly, within 20 years or so of the cross. They were OT believers in a NT age. They were this way only because the NT good news of fulfillment of OT hope had not yet reached them. The Holy Spirit was always present to regenerate and assist believers in the OT, but he was not poured out in abundance. He did not "fill" but a few, usually for a special mission or office. But beginning at Pentecost, the Spirit fills all believers, and empowers all of us (old, young, men, women, remember Peter's exposition of Joel 2) as his NT servants.

Does this help clarify anything? If not, just ask again.

__________________
Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI


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