This is an excellent point, and in line with the earlier discussion of Paul's missionary method. Bring the seminary to them!

Adam

__________________
Adam Brink, Livermore, California
Grace Church of Pleasanton, PCA

He who was punishable by death under the judicial law, is punishable by death still; and he who was not punished by death then, is not to be punished by death now.

It can be argued both ways though. Since prophets and Apostles were given inspiration from God, they were equipped to pass on that information to others. And, though there was a school for prophets, there was no school for Apostles (other than the one time event of being personally trained by Jesus). Jesus, pophets and Apostles are not available to us today to lead our seminaries, except by their words in God's Word and the Spirit of God.

__________________
For the Glory of our King,
Joe Johnson
Slave of Christ, husband, father, Preacherboy at Cornerstone Community Church, Escanaba, MI. and TMS graduate. Personal website - SoundLife.org

I do not know, and I do not say, that a person cannot believe in Revelation and in evolution, too, for a man may believe that which is infinitely wise and also that which is only asinine. ~ CHS

While seminary is useful, I don't think seminary is the best place to train pastors. The local Church is. Seminary is better for the world of academia. A MDIV is nice but the tutorship of a elder is better.

__________________
Joseph P. Grigoletti II
Lay-person
Église Réformée du Québec
Québec, Québec Canada

''Nothing is so sacred that Satan will not invade it. In fact, the more sacred something is, the more he desires to profane it.''
John MacArthur

"Ignorant ministers lead to ignorant congregations. Ignorant congregations lead to a powerless church: my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge, and so forth."

I have a friend who is a United Methodist and he is currently going through what they call Licensing School to become a Licensed Local Pastor. This is a program for men (and of course women, because it is the UMC after all) with some or little college education to become pastors. Imagine what is going to happen to a congregation when they receive a man with some or little college education and all he has is this licensing school for a theological education. Now he will do this school for a week and it is possible for him to be given a church as early as next year.

Even though I am a seminarian and I believe that my training will better prepare me for the pastorate; I am fearful of programs like the one above. My opinion of distance learning is that it is good for certain things, but theology is not one of them.

I will leave you all with this question; would you want to see a physician that graduated from a distance-medical school? Why would you then accept a pastor from a distance-seminary? Thanks for letting me get my in.

__________________
Jeff Wyman
Seminarian
Little Farms Chapel OPC, Coopersville, MI
Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary, Grand Rapids, MI

"May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence." 1 Peter 1:2-3 (ESV)

The pastorate is not a place where one needs to know how to physically deal with people as doctors do. Rather, it's a place where one learns how to spiritually deal with people. And what better place to do that than at the local church where what they learn can be immediately applied?

__________________
Larry Bray
Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/
Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
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“The Christian must not be of such a complying nature as to cut the coat of his profession according to the fashion of the times…" - William Gurnall

Jeff,

This is along the lines of what Dr. Clark has posited, and it frankly, as others have said, does not compare apples to oranges. Physicians do not answer to God for men's souls. Physicians are held accountable for what they do themselves and do not answer to a judicatory over which they may be censured or defrocked. IOW, there is nothing like a Presbytery or a Synod who will answer for why a Dr messed up a diagnosis. There is no body or committee charged with the training of doctors and held accountable if the Dr does not receive the right kind of training. And frankly, the minister before God has more responsibility than the Dr will ever have. This causes Dr. Clark to conclude that the training of ministers is more crucial and therefore should be left up to professionals - experts and methods that are largely academic and man-made.

But we see a very different example from Scripture and a very different mandate. Elders of the church are charged with pouring themselves into the lives of those who will take up the mantle for the next generation. It is not seminaries that are charged with this, but elders - elders who are accountable to the church for their actions. To my knowledge and with all of the mess that has gone on in seminaries in the past several years, has there ever been one professor defrocked for errors in teaching? No doubt they have been villified in writing and railed against in public, but they have not been stripped of their office within the church. Even if there have been cases of this, they simply go to another denomination willing to accept them. The fault of this lies with the church for not keeping control over godly education, and the seminaries for not submitting themselves to the collective wisdom of the church. Dr. Clark has said that the average minister could not train a man the way that he needs to be trained. Even with the help of distance ed, the pastor is woefully inadequate. And he uses the same argument you just used. The only problem with that is that this is the way God intended it. Seminaries are not charged with training up a man for the ministry. They are helps towards that end, but are not the ones responsible for it. Has a medical college ever been cited in a lawsuit against a doctor? How about the American College of Surgeons? The AMA? If they have, there is no way to win that lawsuit. Yet, how many seminaries SHOULD be held accountable for the way they have trained a man? How many churches SHOULD be held accountable as well?

Therefore, it is the primary responsibility of the church and secondarily of the seminary. The keys have been given to the church, the pillar and ground of the truth. The seminary may help, but they are not the organization that the Lord commissioned for the making of disciples. Physicians have no mandate from on high to disciple, therefore the ministry is the more important. And that, from Jesus command, is to be done under the auspices and supervision of the church. So there is no reason why a distance education under the supervision of the church is not a viable method for training men for the gospel ministry.

In Christ,

KC

__________________
Heb 13:20-21

Kevin C. Easterday
Member Covenant OPC, St. Augustine, FL
Husband to Tina (August 13, 1988), Father and Teacher to Kamden (16) and Kolton (14)
Federal Theology Website
Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

What are the exact passages that refer to a college or school of prophets so that i can look at the context a bit closer?

Who ever said we wanted ignorant pastors?

You are just assuming a brick and mortar seminary, often far, far from one's home church is the only way to do it.

TEE (theological education by extension) and distance education and modular intensives can be the answer so as not to wrench pastors away from needy flocks.

In many parts of the Third World a requirement for all pastors to go to seminary would create a village brain drain and deprive the sheep of their shephards where they need them the most - in their local contexts.

It is a sloppy argument to say: You believe that seminary should not be a requirement, therefore you must want stupid pastors.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Again, the medical analogy is a silly one. Find another one that fits.

What do you think of local churches having their own seminaries? Do you think a seminary has to be a ministry of a particular local church?

__________________
Curt Hayashida
member, Community Bible Church (Non-denominational)
Vallejo, CA

Look what these guys are doing Reformed Baptist Seminary

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Geoff/Reformed Baptist
Acworth, GA
John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


"Show me your war face."

One thing preachers of the word must know are the biblical languages. I would not have had the discipline to troll through two years of Hebrew. I could easily do that with reading and listening to lectures on the web or the ipod. I favor studying in the context of the local church. Specifically the one that took you under care. Most reformed seminaries with DE require that you have a mentor, and that you be a member of a church. I believe they assume that you are taken under care and work in the context of your home church.

I was at a Career Fair where Covenant, RTS, WTS, WSC, MARS, and others were, and I entered into a discussion with the admissions guy at WSC. He said something along the lines that Covenant and RTS giving away their lecture content for free (itunes U) seemingly cheapened their education. While I agree with him, they are doing a great service to the mission field and aiding current ministers who have not had further training in the word. It is kingdom work they are engaged in. Seminaries walk the careful line of being an academic institution and being a ministry for the church - to produce men with scholarship and men who are able to preach effectively to their sheep.

The current trend of ministerial study from the context you were raised in, or the context you want to minister in, along with the fact that it is your home church with your shepherds, is a winner not a loser. But you must know the languages for the gospel ministry. So enroll at a local Christian college or fly to a seminary for modular training.

__________________
Pittsburgh, PA
New Covenant PCA
Co-Director of Children's Ministry
Bible Teacher - Trinity Christian School
Blogger, Relentless Grace

2 Kings 22:11 And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes. 12 And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Michaiah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asahiah a servant of the king's, saying, 13 Go ye, enquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us. 14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college) and they communed with her.

Note, when men don't obey God, women run the seminaries. But the context is clear; you want to know what God's word means, go and ask the seminary professor.

The school of the prophets is referred to as the "sons of the prophets", and can be found in several places: 1 Kings 20:35, 2 Kings 2:1-15, 2 Kings 4 - 6. Basically, they were a group of men who lived in the same place, and (as I read it) learned how to be prophets. I believe that Samuel established this school (see 1 Sam 19:20). Amos specifically disclaims that he had a seminary education (Amos 7:14-15) but rather followed a simple life as a herdman.

I may be misreading these, but I don't think I am. Christ followed this same pattern, as did Paul with the students he took along with him. How do you think Luke learned so much?

Cheers,

Adam

That is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard!

They actually think it better to block or hinder folks from gaining access to solid theology?

I wish Covenant would offer Hebrew lectures as part of their free courses. I am ashamedly poor in Hebrew and need all the help I can get.

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA,
Fairmount ARP Church
Candidate Under Care Pittsburgh Theological Seminary & Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
"The benefit of deliverance becomes the more precious in the same proportion in which we are brought to apprehend the magnitude of the evil from which we have been rescued"
-- Zacharias Ursinus, Commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism

Why? I am going to challenge this supposition. Are you speaking for all preachers everywhere? I assume you are because you made a dogmatic statement. You didn't say, "It would be helpful if preachers of the word knew the biblical langagues." Or, "Those preachers with access to instruction to biblical languages should know them." What counsel should be given to preachers without the resources to learn Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic? Missionaries labor to bring the gospel to unreached people groups and yearn to train local pastors to lead indigenous churches. Language training of local pastors is not the highest priority. There are preachers in western countries who lack the means necessary to pay for language instruction. Is it preferable for a preacher to have language training? Of course. More than preferable, it should be pursued. But only ignorance or arrogance would suggest that biblical languages are a requisite for preaching.

I've been rather quiet on the PB of late and this thread is no exception. I have a real problem with elitism in the church. I am sure some will use that statement to charge me with being against seminary training. I'm not against it. I think it can be valuable. But IMHO seminary can never do what the local church should be doing, at least not as long as seminaries operate independent of the local church.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
Visit my BLOG Theology for the Rest of Us

From the WCF chapter 1:8

8. The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which, at the time of the writing of it, was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and, by his singular care and providence, kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical; so as, in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal unto them.


I think a properly trained pastor needs to be able to make an appeal to the original language. I believe that this is in accordance to the WCF.

__________________
Josh Taylor
Verde Valley Reformed Chapel, OPC
Cottonwood, AZ

Again, we are dealing with ideals versus reality:

It would be FABULOUS if every preacher had a doctorate, and knew Hebrew, Greek and Latin!


But aren't there many other competing factors as well?



I rigidly reject even the requirement of seminary for pastors - especially Third World pastors whom need to stay put in their local contexts as much as possible. Otherwise sometimes they leave their towns, their districts, their provinces and even their countries to enter a classroom setting of 4-5 years.

I have seen and heard of local congregations being left like sheep without a shepherd due to some academician making these local faithful pastors feel inferior and unsuited for their task.

If the training is to enhance the task of being a pastor, why does it have to destroy it!



Again, there are good ways to "bring the seminary to them" through TEE, mail-in, distance, and modular courses. If US professors had more of a global vision I am sure more of them would go as "missionary professors" long term or at least for modular units in many locales. There is always a lack of missionaries that teach at Bible schools here and just a few more would make a HUGE impact.

Here again, it appears that we're talking about fundamental differences between baptists and presbys. This is a fundamental divide over the nature of the church, and the need for an educated ministry. Perhaps we can have a debate about seminaries in the debate forum. It would be interesting to see a baptist, local-church man, vs. a presbyterian, seminary man.

Cheers,

Adam