This is an excellent point, and in line with the earlier discussion of Paul's missionary method. Bring the seminary to them!

Adam

__________________
Adam B., Wine Country, California, PCA

"I fear not to hold with Junius, de Politia Mosis cap. 6, that he who was punishable by death under that Judicial law, is punishable by death still; and he who was not punished by death then, is not to be punished by death now."

It can be argued both ways though. Since prophets and Apostles were given inspiration from God, they were equipped to pass on that information to others. And, though there was a school for prophets, there was no school for Apostles (other than the one time event of being personally trained by Jesus). Jesus, pophets and Apostles are not available to us today to lead our seminaries, except by their words in God's Word and the Spirit of God.

__________________
For the Glory of our King,
Joe Johnson
Slave of Christ, husband, father, Preacherboy at Cornerstone Community Church, Escanaba, MI. and TMS graduate. Personal website - SoundLife.org

I do not know, and I do not say, that a person cannot believe in Revelation and in evolution, too, for a man may believe that which is infinitely wise and also that which is only asinine. ~ CHS

While seminary is useful, I don't think seminary is the best place to train pastors. The local Church is. Seminary is better for the world of academia. A MDIV is nice but the tutorship of a elder is better.

__________________
J. P. Grigoletti II * Lay-man * Église Réformée du Québec
Québec, Québec Canada * Member: Église Reformée St. Marc
http://Grigoletti.blogspot.com - blog
<<There are three things necessary for thee to know, that thou, enjoying this comfort, mayest live and die happily: the first, how great your sins and miseries are; the second, how thou may be delivered from all thy sins and miseries; the third, how thou shall express thy gratitude to God for such deliverance.>>

"Ignorant ministers lead to ignorant congregations. Ignorant congregations lead to a powerless church: my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge, and so forth."

I have a friend who is a United Methodist and he is currently going through what they call Licensing School to become a Licensed Local Pastor. This is a program for men (and of course women, because it is the UMC after all) with some or little college education to become pastors. Imagine what is going to happen to a congregation when they receive a man with some or little college education and all he has is this licensing school for a theological education. Now he will do this school for a week and it is possible for him to be given a church as early as next year.

Even though I am a seminarian and I believe that my training will better prepare me for the pastorate; I am fearful of programs like the one above. My opinion of distance learning is that it is good for certain things, but theology is not one of them.

I will leave you all with this question; would you want to see a physician that graduated from a distance-medical school? Why would you then accept a pastor from a distance-seminary? Thanks for letting me get my in.

__________________
Jeff Wyman
Man Under Care
Little Farms Chapel OPC, Coopersville, MI
Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary

"Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other." - Isaiah 45:22 (ESV)

The pastorate is not a place where one needs to know how to physically deal with people as doctors do. Rather, it's a place where one learns how to spiritually deal with people. And what better place to do that than at the local church where what they learn can be immediately applied?

__________________
Larry Bray
Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/
Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
-----------------------------------------------------
Christian ritual costs nothing and is worth nothing. True Christian religion costs all that we have and is worth everything.

Jeff,

This is along the lines of what Dr. Clark has posited, and it frankly, as others have said, does not compare apples to oranges. Physicians do not answer to God for men's souls. Physicians are held accountable for what they do themselves and do not answer to a judicatory over which they may be censured or defrocked. IOW, there is nothing like a Presbytery or a Synod who will answer for why a Dr messed up a diagnosis. There is no body or committee charged with the training of doctors and held accountable if the Dr does not receive the right kind of training. And frankly, the minister before God has more responsibility than the Dr will ever have. This causes Dr. Clark to conclude that the training of ministers is more crucial and therefore should be left up to professionals - experts and methods that are largely academic and man-made.

But we see a very different example from Scripture and a very different mandate. Elders of the church are charged with pouring themselves into the lives of those who will take up the mantle for the next generation. It is not seminaries that are charged with this, but elders - elders who are accountable to the church for their actions. To my knowledge and with all of the mess that has gone on in seminaries in the past several years, has there ever been one professor defrocked for errors in teaching? No doubt they have been villified in writing and railed against in public, but they have not been stripped of their office within the church. Even if there have been cases of this, they simply go to another denomination willing to accept them. The fault of this lies with the church for not keeping control over godly education, and the seminaries for not submitting themselves to the collective wisdom of the church. Dr. Clark has said that the average minister could not train a man the way that he needs to be trained. Even with the help of distance ed, the pastor is woefully inadequate. And he uses the same argument you just used. The only problem with that is that this is the way God intended it. Seminaries are not charged with training up a man for the ministry. They are helps towards that end, but are not the ones responsible for it. Has a medical college ever been cited in a lawsuit against a doctor? How about the American College of Surgeons? The AMA? If they have, there is no way to win that lawsuit. Yet, how many seminaries SHOULD be held accountable for the way they have trained a man? How many churches SHOULD be held accountable as well?

Therefore, it is the primary responsibility of the church and secondarily of the seminary. The keys have been given to the church, the pillar and ground of the truth. The seminary may help, but they are not the organization that the Lord commissioned for the making of disciples. Physicians have no mandate from on high to disciple, therefore the ministry is the more important. And that, from Jesus command, is to be done under the auspices and supervision of the church. So there is no reason why a distance education under the supervision of the church is not a viable method for training men for the gospel ministry.

In Christ,

KC

__________________
Heb 13:20-21

Kevin C. Easterday
Member Covenant OPC, St. Augustine, FL
Husband to Tina (August 13, 1988), Father and Teacher to Kamden (17) and Kolton (15)
Federal Theology Website
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What are the exact passages that refer to a college or school of prophets so that i can look at the context a bit closer?

Who ever said we wanted ignorant pastors?

You are just assuming a brick and mortar seminary, often far, far from one's home church is the only way to do it.

TEE (theological education by extension) and distance education and modular intensives can be the answer so as not to wrench pastors away from needy flocks.

In many parts of the Third World a requirement for all pastors to go to seminary would create a village brain drain and deprive the sheep of their shephards where they need them the most - in their local contexts.

It is a sloppy argument to say: You believe that seminary should not be a requirement, therefore you must want stupid pastors.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Again, the medical analogy is a silly one. Find another one that fits.

What do you think of local churches having their own seminaries? Do you think a seminary has to be a ministry of a particular local church?

__________________
Curt Hayashida
member, Community Bible Church (Non-denominational)
Vallejo, CA

Look what these guys are doing Reformed Baptist Seminary

__________________
Geoff/Reformed Baptist
Acworth, GA
John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


"Show me your war face."

One thing preachers of the word must know are the biblical languages. I would not have had the discipline to troll through two years of Hebrew. I could easily do that with reading and listening to lectures on the web or the ipod. I favor studying in the context of the local church. Specifically the one that took you under care. Most reformed seminaries with DE require that you have a mentor, and that you be a member of a church. I believe they assume that you are taken under care and work in the context of your home church.

I was at a Career Fair where Covenant, RTS, WTS, WSC, MARS, and others were, and I entered into a discussion with the admissions guy at WSC. He said something along the lines that Covenant and RTS giving away their lecture content for free (itunes U) seemingly cheapened their education. While I agree with him, they are doing a great service to the mission field and aiding current ministers who have not had further training in the word. It is kingdom work they are engaged in. Seminaries walk the careful line of being an academic institution and being a ministry for the church - to produce men with scholarship and men who are able to preach effectively to their sheep.

The current trend of ministerial study from the context you were raised in, or the context you want to minister in, along with the fact that it is your home church with your shepherds, is a winner not a loser. But you must know the languages for the gospel ministry. So enroll at a local Christian college or fly to a seminary for modular training.

__________________
Pittsburgh, PA
New Covenant PCA, a church replant that you could read about here.
Co-Director of Children's Ministry
Bible Teacher - Trinity Christian School
M. Div Candidate at the Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
Blogger, Relentless Grace

2 Kings 22:11 And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes. 12 And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Michaiah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asahiah a servant of the king's, saying, 13 Go ye, enquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us. 14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college) and they communed with her.

Note, when men don't obey God, women run the seminaries. But the context is clear; you want to know what God's word means, go and ask the seminary professor.

The school of the prophets is referred to as the "sons of the prophets", and can be found in several places: 1 Kings 20:35, 2 Kings 2:1-15, 2 Kings 4 - 6. Basically, they were a group of men who lived in the same place, and (as I read it) learned how to be prophets. I believe that Samuel established this school (see 1 Sam 19:20). Amos specifically disclaims that he had a seminary education (Amos 7:14-15) but rather followed a simple life as a herdman.

I may be misreading these, but I don't think I am. Christ followed this same pattern, as did Paul with the students he took along with him. How do you think Luke learned so much?

Cheers,

Adam

That is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard!

They actually think it better to block or hinder folks from gaining access to solid theology?

I wish Covenant would offer Hebrew lectures as part of their free courses. I am ashamedly poor in Hebrew and need all the help I can get.

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Member Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA

Deo Vindice

Why? I am going to challenge this supposition. Are you speaking for all preachers everywhere? I assume you are because you made a dogmatic statement. You didn't say, "It would be helpful if preachers of the word knew the biblical langagues." Or, "Those preachers with access to instruction to biblical languages should know them." What counsel should be given to preachers without the resources to learn Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic? Missionaries labor to bring the gospel to unreached people groups and yearn to train local pastors to lead indigenous churches. Language training of local pastors is not the highest priority. There are preachers in western countries who lack the means necessary to pay for language instruction. Is it preferable for a preacher to have language training? Of course. More than preferable, it should be pursued. But only ignorance or arrogance would suggest that biblical languages are a requisite for preaching.

I've been rather quiet on the PB of late and this thread is no exception. I have a real problem with elitism in the church. I am sure some will use that statement to charge me with being against seminary training. I'm not against it. I think it can be valuable. But IMHO seminary can never do what the local church should be doing, at least not as long as seminaries operate independent of the local church.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Reformed Baptist
Maryland

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Visit my BLOG Theology for the Rest of Us

From the WCF chapter 1:8

8. The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which, at the time of the writing of it, was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and, by his singular care and providence, kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical; so as, in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal unto them.


I think a properly trained pastor needs to be able to make an appeal to the original language. I believe that this is in accordance to the WCF.

__________________
Josh Taylor
Verde Valley Reformed Chapel, OPC
Cottonwood, AZ

Again, we are dealing with ideals versus reality:

It would be FABULOUS if every preacher had a doctorate, and knew Hebrew, Greek and Latin!


But aren't there many other competing factors as well?



I rigidly reject even the requirement of seminary for pastors - especially Third World pastors whom need to stay put in their local contexts as much as possible. Otherwise sometimes they leave their towns, their districts, their provinces and even their countries to enter a classroom setting of 4-5 years.

I have seen and heard of local congregations being left like sheep without a shepherd due to some academician making these local faithful pastors feel inferior and unsuited for their task.

If the training is to enhance the task of being a pastor, why does it have to destroy it!



Again, there are good ways to "bring the seminary to them" through TEE, mail-in, distance, and modular courses. If US professors had more of a global vision I am sure more of them would go as "missionary professors" long term or at least for modular units in many locales. There is always a lack of missionaries that teach at Bible schools here and just a few more would make a HUGE impact.

Here again, it appears that we're talking about fundamental differences between baptists and presbys. This is a fundamental divide over the nature of the church, and the need for an educated ministry. Perhaps we can have a debate about seminaries in the debate forum. It would be interesting to see a baptist, local-church man, vs. a presbyterian, seminary man.

Cheers,

Adam

I will defend my dogmatic statement.

As it was said we are discussing ideals not reality. In places like South Africa I would already be a preacher. (I am 23 and with a religion degree in my pocket... just walking around before the seminary plunge. Life experience is more important and beneficial than being lectured at, even with the one on one interaction with Profs.)

But here in the states and the very nature of our reformed and presbyterian denominations being licensed to preach at my age is unheard of (by me at least). But even if I were in South Africa I would contend that regular preachers of the word must know the Biblical languages.

God gave us stories. And if you do not even know the original author's word choice, and instead rely on a translation, you miss out-period. Greek and Hebrew are both dead languages and we do not have good English parallels for certain words. Dan. 1 and 2 recounts how David and his friends were taken into exile and given new names. Reeducation we may call it. But the new names glorify the pagan gods, while their true names exalted Yahweh.

It is a necessity when debating Jehovah's False Witnesses and the Mormons who have their twisted and manmade words in hand. "That is not what the Greek says" they claim. OK- Pull off the Greek NT and show them Col. 1:9. Even when they claim that Jehovah comes from Yahweh is wrong. But unless a teacher told you this, or look at the Hebrew itself, one would not know this.

Martin Lloyd Jones contended that the languages were extracurricular activities for the ministry. Machen said they were indispensible. Two years ago I started studying the Hebrew language and it takes a lot of work for me to do. For the sake of my own laziness and leisure I would love to say the languages are extracurricular, but they aren't. And in saying all these things- I think and believe they are essential to the preacher, but God obviously blesses the ministries of men who do not know the languages.

PS. I argue for this in the context of the local church.

Adam: I don't understand you. What difference are these and why would baptists and presbies differ here?

Pergamum, you're not alone.....

I used to be a staunch sovereign grace baptist, and (in general) the more "baptist" someone becomes, the less they are willing to believe in a catholic/universal church. The church is defined as local only. In such a mode of thought, there is no place for any body beyond the local congregation, thus making a Presbytery or G.A. controlled seminary a "Romish" hangover.

Prebies believe in a catholic church, which includes the unity of the whole body. This has historically meant no lone-ranger or unconnected churches. Synods, councils, G.A.s and presbyteries are seen to have authoritative decision making power, as per Acts 15. Pure baptist theology does not allow for anything beyond the local church's power, and will therefore deny the legitimacy of anyone outside of the local church training pastors. For more on this, you may want to look up my old pastor, Dr. William R. Downing. A staunch baptist who does not believe in a catholic church.

Cheers,

Adam

Adam:

Yes, I come from Sovereign Grace Baptist circles and many of my supporting churches are SGB churches. Ironically, they bash parachurches and yet find it in their hearts to support me, on odd duck I guess, who partnered with a mission society.

The flavor of some of the Sovereign Grace Baptists almost seems Landmarkish does it not?

I do think a greater sense of cooperation and also connectionalism (if I understand this word correctly) needs to be fostered. I also think that missionary societies and seminaries for that matter - which are outside the direct oversight of a local church - are permissible means of meeting needs in evangelism and education.



So....in short...your statement clicked for me and I agree totally with your observation - many Baptists mistake a doctrine of independency for a doctrine of isolationism. That is a good observation.

I see no problems with local churches working together for the greater good - even across denominational lines.




Now, I want to ask you - just how many little sects, schisms and spasms are among prebyterians?

They don't seem to be much better by way of unity than the baptists do. And the unified groups have largely uniformly slid into apostasy. So, I will take my calvinistic soteriology and my baptistic ecclesiology any day.

Quite a few, but they are very unified within themselves...

__________________
Mason
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
New York, NY

"Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18

What does that mean?

I have been sitting out this thread because of my respect for Dr. Clark and desire not to be too contentious.

After participating in 450-500 ordination exams over the past 27 years, I think that some of us are missing the point. The issue is not an "educated" clergy vs. a non-educated one. If the standards identify outcomes and remain the same, then the question should be about delivery systems.

People who have invested 9-12 years in college, seminary, and graduate school classrooms (with the tens of thousands of dollars of debt that go with it) have an understandable prejudice in favor of traditional tracks. Also, some of us who spent our years and dollars on that approach have a defensiveness for it as well (it was good enough for me . . . ). Unfortunately, since all educational delivery options carry unintended consequences, we must also weigh the negative effects that go with them.

Traditional academic preparation delivers all of the values identified in this thread. It excels at teaching biblical languages, allows for good give-and-take between learners and instructors, and looks on paper like the ideal model. Yet it also tends to abstract people frm their original context, socialize them in ways that often makes them less effective with the people who sent them off to get a theological education, and frequently feeds their pride. I have seen third world nationals come to America to get their education, and finish seminary less able to return to their people. Some of them become so habituated to American culture that they don't go back at all!

I have commented on this thread before that in my own circles, I have observed ministers graduate from seminary demonstrably LESS competent to minister than they were before matriculating.

If your goal is competence "outcomes," you can identify various objective standards and hold the line on quality without prescribing a one-size-fits-all delivery system. How can anyone say that a person who completes a M.Div. (for instance) by distance education is any less "academically" prepared? Frankly, some of the empirical data on DE suggests that tests scores and actual proficiencies are higher for those who complete a DE degree than one who does it through bricks and mortar.

And, when ministerial preparation is the goal, I would much rather see a person who has been mentored by a competent pastor over one who has merely sat in a classroom lecture hall with 150 other students (actually some of my bricks and mortar seminary classes were larger than this!). You Presbys seem to do a better job of having PhDs who are also Godly and effective pastors doing the seminary teaching. Most of my profs were either utterly inexperienced in pastoral ministry or failures at it who retreated to the academy in response.

In a world of MP3s distributed for free on the internet, streaming video, and free (or practically free) books and Bible software online, the game has changed. One need not quit his job, travel to Philadelphia, Dallas, Greenville, Pasadena, or Grand Rapids, and rack up gazillions of dollars in debt in order to receive quality instruction. Church based models utilizing readily available lectures, innovative online instructional techniques, and patoral mentoring structures show great promise for delivering the SAME level of theological and biblical education at a fraction of the current cost.

In my view, the "best" theological education would combine top rate content (e.g., many of the BEST Reformed teachers have courses available for free that include EVERY word spoken by the professor to the class including mention of when the course projects are due!) + unyielding academic accountability for learning the "content" of the discipline + adequate mentorship in the practice of ministry + provision for a "community of learners."

How do you find this formula in the real world? Some of our seminaries do a very capable job of delivery. Many do not. The innovative programs being proposed today take advantage of computers and the internet to produce other delivery systems equal in quality but without some of the unintended consequences of traditonal bricks and mortar seminaries.

One of my sons was privileged to complete his theological education using a hybrid model that I find quite attractive. He completed a traditional B.A. with 60+ units of Bible/theology (including a year of Greek). Then, during seminary, he used a modular program. Several times each year he took courses on the bricks and mortar campus. Preparation involved reading the same number of books/pages prior to class, being on campus for the same number of lecture hours (10 per unit) compressed into a single week, and have a month to complete the written work following the course lectures. Courses were team taught by a traditional seminary prof (PhD etc.) AND a proven ministerial practitioner. This model allowed my son to be in full time ministry under the mentorship of an experienced pastor, continue learning and serving on an effective ministry team, AND finish an accredited bricks and mortar degree.

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

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Just making a joke - apparently not a very good one - that the different presbyterian groups are unified within their individual "sect." PCAers are unified within the PCA, OPCers are unified within the OPC, etc...

Oh, every single sect I guess if then unified....until right before a split happens...then they get unified again.

Hmmmm.....delivery systems.........


Thanks for that perspective!

Pergy, I was primarily dealing with the context I know best here in the U.S. When you add the grinding reality of poverty in some third world settings, my comments about DE and innovative delivery packages would be even stronger.

I have been impressed with the mission of Third Millennium ministries. They say:

Very ambitious agenda with great promise. And, they are REFORMED!!! "Third Millennium Ministries (IIIM) is an Evangelical Christian parachurch ministry in the Reformed tradition."

I would say generally, but not absolutely.

(I desire so much to go to seminary now but it doesn't seem possible for a good while, I pray a door opens!)

__________________
Will
Christ Church (ARP)
Denver, NC

www.timelesschristianbooks.com

What can I say, you're a likable guy

My former pastor was brought up on Landmarkism, and when I met some of his LM friends, they were rather zealous fellows, although most of them seemed to be lacking in a commensurate level of knowledge. I had to be "rebaptized" by the SG pastor, even though the Ref Baps had already rebaptized me from the Nazarene baptism I got as a kid. I've been three times baptized, and the third was so that I could fellowship with the LMs who would think I wasn't a christian for receiving RB baptism.

Indeed. Although the ideas of independency/autonomy is not inseparably connected with isolationism, I think that the more consistent a man is with autonomy, the more isolationist he will become.

Ahhh, too true. I think, particularly in America, we all tend to think like baptists in this regard. We don't like one little thing about a G.A., and therefore we separate into a smaller presby. This is why the liberals gain foothold: we lose conservatives over Psalm-singing. This is why, as you observe, the larger denominations tend to "slide into apostasy". First wind of error, and someone goes packing. I'd prefer them to stick around and work for reform; but they have to do as they think God directs.

Cheers,

Adam