I'm going to Dordt College next year, as a preliminary step to seminary, and then, God willing, the ministry. I'm in something of a quandry, however, deciding what to major in. I want my major, above all, to be the best preparation for eventual ministry possible: and I think my interests generally coincide with that goal. If I did not feel called to the ministry at all, I would still probably want to study one of these three things in my undergratuate education: Philosophy, Classical Studies, or History...

As it is however I'm planning to label myself 'pre-law', which means I'll pretty much get to study a mixture of those things that I make up myself. Do any of you have any input on whether this would be wise? Or do you think it would benefit me more as a future pastor to study just History or Philosophy or Classical Studies before seminary? Thanks ahead for your input!

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Robert M. D. Minto
Dordt College, Sioux Center, IA
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the Glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. II Cor. 3:17-18[
The Veil Away: Truth For Our Times

Robert,

I was in basically the same situation not too long ago. As you can see from my signature, I ended up choosing Classical Studies over English, History, Philosophy, Politics or the like. One of the main factors that initially pushed me in that direction was the realization that in studying Classics, you cover all of those things. You have your language, history, philosophy, literature, religion, politics, theatre, art, etc. Furthermore, the context in which you study those things is especially useful for having a familiarity with the foundational and surrounding culture of the New Testament.

Even so, all of the fields of study have their advantages, of course. In fact, the more undergraduate courses I take in different departments, and the more I talk to people who have done graduate and postgraduate studies, the more I see how one's undergraduate major does not matter as much as many incoming freshmen seem to think. Still, we of course need to consider as many factors as possible when deciding, and not neglect the value it does have.

When I was having to make a decision, I too asked for people's input here. You can read the responses and helpful input in this thread. As usual, Rev. Greco's advice (both on Classics and the issue as a whole) was especially valuable.

__________________
Chris


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Christopher Blum
Member of Trinity Presbyterian Church of Northern Kentucky (PCA) in Burlington, KY

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I love to see the difference in attitudes about "useful majors" between young men seeking to serve Christ and those seeking to serve mammon. Shamefully, I was the former at age 18.

I studied Engineering because I've always had great aptitude for physics and math. We were required to study the humanities and the social sciences but I did so in an obligatory way. They were a "waste of my time." I especially viewed philosophy as uninteresting and not pragmatic to my profession so I never took a single course. I got good grades in those classes but did well only on principle of succeeding and not because I really thought they were important.

I wish I knew then what I know now. I'd still have studied Engineering with a vocational aim toward military service but I would have studied philosophy and literature and the classics more. I didn't have a whole lot of flexibility because I was taking about 18-21 credit hours per semester but I still could have applied my energies differently.

Of course, that doesn't keep me from poking fun. A couple years back, I was in charge of a course that trained new Communications Officers for the Marine Corps. The course was 23 weeks long and very technically and academically rigorous. I used to begin each class by asking:

"Who received a liberal arts degree in college?"

About 40% of the hands would be raised.

"Your degree has well prepared you for a job that asks: 'Would you like fries with that?'"

Of course, the joke was aimed primarily at those who receive pointless degrees and have no vocational end in mind when they study certain subjects. If you're going to study philosphy and the classics as your primary major then a proper vocation should be in mind.

Joking aside, Pastoral work is the most noble of vocations and I think your studies line up well with your aim.

__________________
Rich
Northern VA
PCA

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Go back to the old board archives and try to find Fred Greco's old points on this. They were wise.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Let's put it in perspective:
I majored in history and minored in Greek/New Testament studies. I can write and think well and read big books. That being said I now have to take at least 2 years off seminary, get certification in another field (I will be working full time while getting the certification) and then go back to seminary actually being able to afford it.

Here is what I am saying: The hardest part of seminary is not the classes. Its paying bills. While my church blessedly helped me, both me and the church expected another unnamed institution to activate funds that belonged to me. There was a legal loophole and they never did. Now I have to (and in a sense, want to) take a few years off, mature, get my feet on financial ground, take St Paul seriously about tentmaking, and then go back to seminary with my life in order.

Bottom line: Liberal Arts degrees are useful if you have the financial means in life to do so. Also, in the pastorate you might have to be bivocational for a while or extenuating circumstances might force you to be out of the ministry. How would you support your family in that case? I only ask because these are realities that I have to face.

Jacob, these are wise words... I honestly had not thought very much about this, but now that I think of it I know many many pastors who are laboring nearly to exhaustion because either their church cannot yet support them, or they are between pastorates, and because they didn't ever take the trouble to become bi-vocational...

Also, I'd like to thank Chris and Jacob for pointing me to the previous thoughts of Pastor Greco... They are indeed VERY applicable.

I have disagreed with Fred on a number of thoughts but he was easily the wisest man I knew at seminary. I miss him.

I can dig this....I'm an english major at Ole Miss and I will have had 4 full semesters of attic greek when I graduate......My church has a great tradtion of helping seminary students get through and I will need it when I graduate...Not to change the subject or get on the accredidation topic, but my wife and I will undoubtedly be visiting Greenville Pres. next spring to check it out... I've heard that Greenville is an affordable city to live in. So, speaking of finances, I can't help but give Pipa and those guys a real chance; especially w the new building and everything going on there.....

__________________
Jason B. Spires (Husband of Brownie)
Soon to be member of Independent Presbyterian Church (Taking elder led class on church doctrine and policy)
We adhere to the WCF and are in the PCA

"Mercy abused turns to fury"- Thomas Watson

I was going to transfer from RTS to Greenville, but decided not to at the last minute. I would lose too many credit hours and the transfer would negate the cheap costs. But for starters, and if lack of accredidation isn't a problem for you (it isn't for me--plus Greenville will only get better from here on out), then Greenville is undoubtedly the place to go.

I've never been to seminary, nor do I have plans to do so, so I'm just putting in my 2 cents worth, but I would like to put in a plug here for my old undergraduate discipline. An economics degree would have the following advantages:
- involves a high level of logic, both mathematical and lingual. One can branch out into such areas as economic history, history of economic thought, money and ethics, statistics, mathematical finance - something for those who like to read long books and those who prefer mathematical equations.
-should provide some understanding of the business world, a trait sometimes lacking in those who go from school to college to seminary.
- high starting salaries, especially with an accounting major, about the highest for any graduates with only an undergrad degree.
- very few pastors know anything much of economics, but unfortunately this doesn't stop all of them from commenting on economic matters, causing the church much embarrasment among those who do understand the discipline. This tends to affect more those of a liberal left inclination, but authoritarian rightwing church leaders can, at times, be just as bad. They seem to have no idea the loss of intellectual and moral credibility they cause by advocating unworkable, unethical economic policies.

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T W Hopper
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church
Currently between churches since PRC closed here - attending Crossroads Christian Church.
Canberra, Australia.

As Rich stated above, I believe you have to have "an end in mind." I did not have an end in mind when I finished my 1st degree in Humanities at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga back in 1990. My work with mainframe computers was twice interuppted with layoffs due to the changing PC Market. I went back to school and received a more practical degree--B.S.N in Nursing--because I knew it could pay the bills. I do not regret my
1st degree and experience, I just wish I had switched them around.

Paying the Bills is important when you have a mortgage.

__________________
~ Steven Bradford ~
Member Covenant Presbyterian, Chattanooga, TN

Robert,

There are a number of possible majors that will prepare you for seminary. We've discussed this on this board (but I could not find the thread) before.

The main thing is to learn to think, read, and write well (it used to be called the trivium: grammar, logic, and rhetoric.

I find increasingly students come ill-prepared for seminary. I've noticed a real decline in recent years. I now spend the first hour of every course lecturing on how to read and write. Students don't even realize that they don't read and write well since they've been told all their lives how wonderful they are.

My advice is to work on your use of English. Find the most critical English prof on campus and learn to satisfy him or her. Ask them to criticize your grammar and style ruthlessly.

Learn a modern European language. You will be glad you did.

If you can learn Latin in college, learning Greek will be much easier because you will learn how inflected languages work. In several respects Greek is Latin with funny letters.

Take as much Ancient and European history as you can. A good introduction to Philosophy will be useful.

Certainly you should take an introductory Logic course.

A speech course or two will be very useful. Often "Ministry of the Word" (homiletics 101) is the first time students have given a speech or given any thought to public speaking. The more experience you can gather in public speaking the better off you will be.

As to majors: A classics major will be useful but so would a philosophy major. The latter would help you should you find yourself in our "Christian Mind" and "Modern Mind" courses. A history major would help as most seminaries give short shrift to history (out of 109 credits, we only require 10 of them in history).

If you're going to seminary, you will do better to spend your time learning things that you can get in college but not in seminary. In other words, the typical "pre-sem" curriculum isn't always helpful as it is redundant of what is done in seminary. It's better to get a broad background in your undergraduate years and leave the theology etc for seminary.

Generally, I disagree with those who denigrate the utility of a liberal arts degree. A good liberal arts degree will prepare you to do any number of things. What most employers want is someone who can learn, think clearly, speak well, and work hard. A good liberal arts degree will do this for you.

There are those for whom a liberal arts background is not very helpful. Fine, those folk should get a technical education, but we ought not reduce our universities and Christian colleges to vo-tech schools.

Certainly a strong liberal arts background is essential for preparing for seminary. We recommend it strongly here. Those who come to us with e.g., engineering backgrounds sometimes struggle with learning how to write discursive, expositional papers. Some of them have never written such a paper. They also sometimes struggle with learning not to treat the Bible like some sort of technical manual, but that's another discussion.

rsc

__________________
R. Scott Clark, D.Phil
Professor of Church History and Historical Theology

"For Christ, His Gospel, and His Church"
Associate Pastor
Oceanside URC
The Heidelblog

Very helpful Dr. Clark, thank you.

And a discussion that would be welcomed.

--civil engineer

__________________
--chRis
Psalm 115:1

Christopher Reeder
Husband to Kara, Father to Abigail (7), Caleb (6), Grace (4 1/2), Zoë (3), Elijah (1 1/2) and Hannah (born 8/8/2008)

Member: Pilgrim Presbyterian Church (OPC), Raleigh, NC

So how would this plan work for providing a balance of liberal arts studies and practical studies?

A major in Classics, and a minor in Journalism?

Also, on Dr. Clark's remarks about 'pre-seminary' degrees, I just want to say I totally agree after looking at the content of one... They're pretty much redundant for someone who's actually going to go to seminary.

I think the best comment so far has been "It's better to get a broad background in your undergraduate years and leave the theology etc for seminary." by R. Scott Clark. Ministers, as someone hinted at earlier, can sometimes make themselves look a bit foolish if their general knowledge is not very wide. At the same time you need a good founding knowledge in the history and politics of the Biblical period. I have found now that my graduation is drawing near that I am a bit worried about how closed I was earlier on about branching out into different subjects. Fortunatly I have found I can change to a double major even before I graduate if I want to put more time in.

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Fraser,
Trinity Reformed Baptist Church
Hamilton, New Zealand.