Closed Thread
Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: The Temptation of Influence

  1. #1
    R. Scott Clark's Avatar
    R. Scott Clark is offline. Puritanboard Senior
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Escondido, CA
    Posts
    2,166
    Thanks
    19
    Thanked 914 Times in 333 Posts
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to R. Scott Clark For This Useful Post:

    kvanlaan (03-27-2008), lwadkins (03-26-2008), Semper Fidelis (03-26-2008), smhbbag (03-26-2008)

  3. #2
    jaybird0827's Avatar
    jaybird0827 is offline. Puritanboard Postgraduate
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Indian Trail, NC
    Posts
    4,146
    Blog Entries
    10
    Thanks
    1,060
    Thanked 456 Times in 296 Posts
    This is an excellent article, Dr. Clark.

    I have one question though. You stated the following:

    The pressure is immense to conform to the theology, piety, and practice of the evangelicals. There is not a great “market” in North America for Reformed confessionalism. There are at least 60 million American evangelicals. There are probably no more than one half million confessional Reformed folk. Put another way, the evangelicals are at least 120 times larger than NAPARC.
    Is it possible that there is a sizeable plurality of evangelicals within NAPARC that are part of the issue?
    ~Jay~
    Husband of ENS, father of J II. | Indian Trail, NC
    disabled - cancer
    Communicant Member, Precentor | Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte, NC | Presbyterian Reformed Church
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  4. #3
    Zenas's Avatar
    Zenas is offline. Snow Miser
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Memphis, TN
    Posts
    3,605
    Thanks
    333
    Thanked 1,609 Times in 845 Posts
    I think it's correct to characterize evangelical and Reformed as two entirely different entities, although I have no idea what an evangelical is anymore. I know I'm not one.
    Andrew DeShazo
    Husband of Kathryn
    Father of Phillip-Giles B. DeShazo
    Deacon
    Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN

    "From out of the depth of unbroken Infinfity arose the Question, "Who am I?" And to that Question there is the answer, "I am God!" -Meher Baba, died 1969.

    "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Christ, died 33 AD, ressurected three days later.
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  5. #4
    Daniel Ritchie is offline. Puritanboard Doctor
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Saintfield, Co. Down, Northern Ireland
    Posts
    6,513
    Thanks
    2,011
    Thanked 1,123 Times in 739 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenas View Post
    I think it's correct to characterize evangelical and Reformed as two entirely different entities, although I have no idea what an evangelical is anymore. I know I'm not one.
    I believe the gospel, therefore, in the Biblical sense, I am an evangelical.
    Daniel Ritchie
    Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
    Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  6. #5
    R. Scott Clark's Avatar
    R. Scott Clark is offline. Puritanboard Senior
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Escondido, CA
    Posts
    2,166
    Thanks
    19
    Thanked 914 Times in 333 Posts
    I sometimes say that I am "evangelical" but not "an evangelical." The definition of the word is, as we all know, highly problematic in the contemporary period. As I see it the troubles are traceable to the 18th century. The New Siders were not particularly interested in being bound to the confession. For them religious experience trumped confession. Be that as it may, there is an important sense in which confessionalists are evangelical. We are so in the same way the Protestants were. One of the first adjectives used of the Reformers was "evangelical."

    I think Darryl Hart makes a good point when he says that there isn't really anything such as "evangelicalism" any more. There are two many particularities among the evangelicals to speak of a unified entity "evangelicalism" any more.

    As to evangelicalism within NAPARC, absolutely its an issue and so is fundamentalism. Those are, in my view, the two great issues. The antidote for both is confessionalism.
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to R. Scott Clark For This Useful Post:

    jaybird0827 (03-25-2008)

  8. #6
    Seb's Avatar
    Seb
    Seb is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Bradenton, FL
    Posts
    1,578
    Thanks
    590
    Thanked 331 Times in 203 Posts
    What's a 'New Sider' ?
    Steve Butts - Former SBC-er
    Three Forms of Unity - Bradenton CRCNA - Bradenton, Florida
    (A conservative member in a conservative congregation)

    "Turning away to false Theology is equal to turning away to false gods" — Francis Schaeffer (Death in the City)
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  9. #7
    toddpedlar's Avatar
    toddpedlar is offline. Iron Dramatist
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Decorah, IA
    Posts
    6,702
    Thanks
    263
    Thanked 2,656 Times in 1,365 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Seb View Post
    What's a 'New Sider' ?
    That's Ron Sider after his position was made to look silly by Chilton's book...
    Todd K. Pedlar
    member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
    My Blog: In Principio Deus
    Podcast I co-host: Covenant Radio

    "As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
    John Flavel in Keeping the Heart

    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Joining PB's Politics & Government Forum
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  10. #8
    toddpedlar's Avatar
    toddpedlar is offline. Iron Dramatist
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Decorah, IA
    Posts
    6,702
    Thanks
    263
    Thanked 2,656 Times in 1,365 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Seb View Post
    What's a 'New Sider' ?
    the real answer:

    check Muether & Hart here, in New Horizons and a very important work by Charles Hodge, here.
    Todd K. Pedlar
    member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
    My Blog: In Principio Deus
    Podcast I co-host: Covenant Radio

    "As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
    John Flavel in Keeping the Heart

    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Joining PB's Politics & Government Forum
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  11. #9
    Seb's Avatar
    Seb
    Seb is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Bradenton, FL
    Posts
    1,578
    Thanks
    590
    Thanked 331 Times in 203 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by toddpedlar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Seb View Post
    What's a 'New Sider' ?
    the real answer:

    check Muether & Hart here, in New Horizons and a very important work by Charles Hodge, here.
    Thanks.
    Steve Butts - Former SBC-er
    Three Forms of Unity - Bradenton CRCNA - Bradenton, Florida
    (A conservative member in a conservative congregation)

    "Turning away to false Theology is equal to turning away to false gods" — Francis Schaeffer (Death in the City)
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  12. #10
    R. Scott Clark's Avatar
    R. Scott Clark is offline. Puritanboard Senior
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Escondido, CA
    Posts
    2,166
    Thanks
    19
    Thanked 914 Times in 333 Posts

    Separated at Birth? You Be the Judge!


    Separated at birth? You be the judge!

    ps. If you're not logged in, this post makes less sense than most of my posts as the other pic only shows up to those who are logged in.
    Last edited by R. Scott Clark; 03-25-2008 at 10:01 PM.
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  13. #11
    panta dokimazete is offline. Puritanboard Postgraduate
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    4,689
    Thanks
    700
    Thanked 420 Times in 309 Posts
    - amaaaazing!
    -JD
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  14. #12
    toddpedlar's Avatar
    toddpedlar is offline. Iron Dramatist
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Decorah, IA
    Posts
    6,702
    Thanks
    263
    Thanked 2,656 Times in 1,365 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by R. Scott Clark View Post

    Separated at birth? You be the judge!

    ps. If you're not logged in, this post makes less sense than most of my posts as the other pic only shows up to those who are logged in.
    oh my
    Todd K. Pedlar
    member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
    My Blog: In Principio Deus
    Podcast I co-host: Covenant Radio

    "As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
    John Flavel in Keeping the Heart

    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Joining PB's Politics & Government Forum
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  15. #13
    Presbyterian Deacon's Avatar
    Presbyterian Deacon is offline. Puritanboard Graduate
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Rockville, CT
    Posts
    3,680
    Thanks
    596
    Thanked 956 Times in 727 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by toddpedlar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by R. Scott Clark View Post

    Separated at birth? You be the judge!

    ps. If you're not logged in, this post makes less sense than most of my posts as the other pic only shows up to those who are logged in.
    oh my
    Sterling Harmon
    Presbyterian Church of Coventry (PCA)
    Coventry, CT
    Deacon
    ________________

    "Whatever is laudable in our works proceeds from the grace of God."
    -- John Calvin, Institutes III:xv.3.

    "Our Lord God must be a good man, to be fond of worthless fellows. I cannot like them, and yet I, myself, am one."
    -- Martin Luther, Table Talk

    Interim Pulpit Supply of New England

    My Facebook

    Owner/Administrator @ Reformed Theology Institute
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  16. #14
    Josiah's Avatar
    Josiah is offline. Puritanboard Senior
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Bothell, WA
    Posts
    2,155
    Thanks
    1,561
    Thanked 159 Times in 99 Posts

    Thumbs up The Temptation of Influence

    I didnt notice that this link had already been posted by Dr. Clark earlier. I am sorry for any confusion, I would like to say that I profited greatly from reading this entry and I am ever more encouraged by it in my confessionalism.
    Last edited by Josiah; 03-26-2008 at 12:18 AM. Reason: Already posted by Dr. Clark
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  17. #15
    Semper Fidelis's Avatar
    Semper Fidelis is offline. 2 Timothy 2:24-25
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Northern Virgnia
    Posts
    18,633
    Blog Entries
    1
    Thanks
    2,647
    Thanked 6,662 Times in 2,682 Posts
    Great post Dr. Clark.
    Rich
    PCA, Northern VA
    Student, New Geneva Theological Seminary

    WebsiteMaven - Web Hosting Reviews, Guides, and Advice to build and promote your web site.
    SoliDeoGloria.com - A Community for Reformed Thought and Discussion

    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  18. #16
    Grymir's Avatar
    Grymir is offline. Puritanboard Graduate
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Davenport, IA
    Posts
    3,257
    Thanks
    694
    Thanked 750 Times in 508 Posts
    Really intellegent article. I especially liked - "Of course it’s a Faustian bargain. By making such a bargain Reformed folk have allowed others to define them. " Thanks for posting. It's nice to see people that care anymore. Sometimes I feel that the visible church is in permanent apostasy, and there's nothing that can be done about it. Of couse I do know Church History all too well, and it is the Lord who build's His Church. Thanks - Tim
    Timothy Johnson
    First United Presbyterian of Moline
    PCUSA (Yea, I know)
    Theology/Philosophy Sunday School Teacher
    Davenport, IA
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

  19. #17
    JohnOwen007's Avatar
    JohnOwen007 is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Perth, Australia.
    Posts
    723
    Thanks
    98
    Thanked 252 Times in 123 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by R. Scott Clark View Post
    I think Darryl Hart makes a good point when he says that there isn't really anything such as "evangelicalism" any more. There are two many particularities among the evangelicals to speak of a unified entity "evangelicalism" any more.
    Yes, I enjoyed Hart's book very much on this issue. My quibble with this discussion about evangelicalism is that it tends to neglect evangelicalism outside of the USA (like Australia and the UK).

    The problem is that of definitions generally. Is someone an evangelical just because they call themselves one? This is what Hart assumes. However, Barth, for example, called himself "Reformed". Liberals in the PCUSA would call themselves "Presbyterian".

    If we go with what people call themselves then we're dealing with a sociological definition. If we're using the term as originally defined by Luther or subsequently by the 18 century awakenings we're using an historical definition. Perhaps the discussion could be clarified somewhat by speaking of contemporary versus historic evangelicalism. For example, I'd be unhappy to be known as the former, but very happy to known as the latter.

    Hart wants to abandon the term "Evangelicalism" because it's now meaningless in his context. That may be well and good. But Hart seems to abandon the concept as well, which is a pity. He has neglected something important here: historic evangelicalism (a la Luther) especially emphasizes that the gospel (evangel) is not simply one doctrine amongst many, but the central doctrine of the Christian faith (1 Cor. 15:3-4), and all other doctrines should be defined in relation to it. Such a definition then produces critical emphases in a theological system (bible-based, crucicentric, conversion-oriented, mission-focused etc).

    Every blessing.
    Marty
    Ordained Presbyter; Currently Lecturer in Theology
    Anglican Church of Australia
    (Now finally back! in) Perth, Australia.
    "There is nothing so necessary to draw us to repentance as good thoughts of God." (Thomas Manton)
    Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!

Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69