Should a seminary school be...?

SolaGratia · #1 (**permalink**) 03-12-2008, 12:49 AM

Should a seminary school be independent or under the Church?

WTS has been a very successful seminary (rich in history, Reformed tradition, etc.) but, is it under a church/denomination?

Same for all existing seminaries; Independent or Under the Church?

Thanks!

Backwoods Presbyterian · #2 (**permalink**) 03-12-2008, 07:39 AM

Depends on what its mission is frankly. Seminaries like RPTS function perfectly in their roles as a denominational Seminary. Westminster has flourished in its role as a Reformed "non-denominational" Seminary.

Kevin · #3 (**permalink**) 03-12-2008, 07:46 AM

Very few Presbyterian & Reformed seminaries are either. That is they are not "Independent" or "under" a church. Most are run by, or overseen by a board of directors that are representative of the church that they primarily serve.

The exceptions would be denominational schools that are agencies of synod or GA. The two most prominent examples in this catagory are schools such as Covenant (PCA) or Erskine (ARP). In these cases the schools are still run by boards, however the broader court has a right of review of past actions & have an advisory position re the future on an annual basis.

Others such as Greenville, WTS, Know, etc. are all board run schools. I know of no Reformed seminaries that are under the authority of a presbytry or a session.

Stephen · #4 (**permalink**) 03-12-2008, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin

Very few Presbyterian & Reformed seminaries are either. That is they are not "Independent" or "under" a church. Most are run by, or overseen by a board of directors that are representative of the church that they primarily serve.

The exceptions would be denominational schools that are agencies of synod or GA. The two most prominent examples in this catagory are schools such as Covenant (PCA) or Erskine (ARP). In these cases the schools are still run by boards, however the broader court has a right of review of past actions & have an advisory position re the future on an annual basis.

Others such as Greenville, WTS, Know, etc. are all board run schools. I know of no Reformed seminaries that are under the authority of a presbytry or a session.

Knox is under the authority of the session of CRPC, but this is rare. Some will make a case for a church run seminary like Knox or perhaps Birmingham Theological Seminary (which may be under the session of the PCA church in Birmingham) and others would make a case for the national seminary like WTS, but all have their strengths and weakenesses.

Wannabee · #5 (**permalink**) 03-12-2008, 09:39 AM

I suppose much of this depends upon one's ecclesiology. The problem with seminaries that have no church oversight is that they become the "experts" that we send our men to in order for them to be trained in the ministry. But liberal thinking seldom develops in our churches. It usually begins at the seminary level and filters down. Academics teach men to study outside the pressures and reality of day to day ministry, which can lead to a host of problems, central to which are pride of scholarship and notoriety.

On the other hand, it is clear that the church is to be training up it's members to minister (Eph 4, 2 Tim 2:2) and should be raising up teachers and preachers within her own ranks. But the "expertise" of the seminaries is intimidating to many pastors, who then relegate the training to the seminaries. It would be better if the churches trained men up in the ministry and then used the seminary as a sort of finishing school, with constant surveillance and accountability during their seminary training. After a man's training he should then be sent out by his church, rather than an academic institution. This way the "official education" is secondary and the frosting on the cake, rather than the whole cake. And his ministry is supported by the church rather than a school.

Having said that, I know that there are several churches out there that are doing an excellent job of training men. But, generally speaking, most churches don't have a vision for it anymore.

JBaldwin · #6 (**permalink**) 03-12-2008, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wannabee

I suppose much of this depends upon one's ecclesiology. The problem with seminaries that have no church oversight is that they become the "experts" that we send our men to in order for them to be trained in the ministry. But liberal thinking seldom develops in our churches. It usually begins at the seminary level and filters down. Academics teach men to study outside the pressures and reality of day to day ministry, which can lead to a host of problems, central to which are pride of scholarship and notoriety.

On the other hand, it is clear that the church is to be training up it's members to minister (Eph 4, 2 Tim 2:2) and should be raising up teachers and preachers within her own ranks. But the "expertise" of the seminaries is intimidating to many pastors, who then relegate the training to the seminaries. It would be better if the churches trained men up in the ministry and then used the seminary as a sort of finishing school, with constant surveillance and accountability during their seminary training. After a man's training he should then be sent out by his church, rather than an academic institution. This way the "official education" is secondary and the frosting on the cake, rather than the whole cake. And his ministry is supported by the church rather than a school.

Having said that, I know that there are several churches out there that are doing an excellent job of training men. But, generally speaking, most churches don't have a vision for it anymore.

Thanks Joe,

I was thinking about the same thing, but couldn't seem to find words to express my thoughts. This topic has been revisited many times at family gatherings, as I have a brother-in-law who went to two years at BJU, then completed a two year Bible institute, and two (yes) seminary programs, ten years in all! (Hey guys any of you up for Greek and Hebrew twice?). During his training, he had no real church oversight. In one case, he had a pastor who recommended him, but then never bothered to spend any time with him while he was in seminary (even though he was a member and attending each week the pastor's church). It wasn't until after my brother-in-law graduated from the last seminary, that he was given the opportunity to "prove" he had any qualifying gifts.

Long story short, when he finally ended up in front of an ordination committee, they determined that my brother-in-law was a "fine teacher" but didn't have what it takes to be a pastor. In fact, my brother-in-law is one of the best Bible teachers I know. He loves the Lord and understands the Scriptures better than most pastor/teachers. He believes that if along the way, someone had bothered (or if he had bothered) to get under some oversight, he might have recognized his weakness for pastoring and gone another direction with his teaching gifts.

JBaldwin · #7 (**permalink**) 03-12-2008, 09:59 AM

By the way, my brother-in-law is now a roofing contractor.

DTK · #8 (**permalink**) 03-12-2008, 11:13 AM

Quote:

He believes that if along the way, someone had bothered (or if he had bothered) to get under some oversight, he might have recognized his weakness for pastoring and gone another direction with his teaching gifts.

Please understand that I'm not trying to excuse any failure on the part of someone's duty to another. I do not know your B-I-L, nor his pastor, and that is good for the sake of objectivity. But I don't think it's particularly helpful for us to look back on the path of our lives and attempt to identify this or that possible turn in the crossroads of our lives. But one could just as easily look at it in the positive light of God's providential dealings and conclude: "This is how I discovered the vocation to which God has called me! It had many winding paths, and I wasn't always sure where I was going, but God watched over me at every point of my journey. And if I can now be a better help to any fellow pilgrim, in sharing with him the ways of God with me, then I pray God that he will place such a brother in my present path that I might encourage him along the way."

I believe that even the prayers of God's people are woven into the tapestry of God's eternal counsels. And sometimes if we look at God's dealings with us from this side of eternity, we often see only this side of the tapestry, i.e. the side that appears as a jangled mess of fabric. But when we cross the Jordan and behold the other side of the tapestry, we shall behold the beauty of God's providence and marvel at the rhyme and reason of every stitch God has sewn in His providential dealings with us, and give him praise for the way in which He directed us, and confess with Jacob of old, "Surely the LORD [was] in this place, and I did not know it." (Genesis 28:16).

DTK

JBaldwin · #9 (**permalink**) 03-12-2008, 11:20 AM

David,
Thank you for you commnets. I did not mean by my comments that there was any regret at the way God leads. (You should see the crazy path the Lord has put me on.) My brother-in-law is quite content that he where God wants him. I was only using the situation as an example of what can happen where is no oversight. In this case, there was open acknowledgement (after the fact) that the pastor, the session of his church and even the presbytery, clearly failed to support or shepherd him, and some even went so far as to apologize for their failure.

Wannabee · #10 (**permalink**) 03-13-2008, 03:29 PM

I understand Joy's comments. We can learn from our lives by looking back. I also look back and, similar to Joy's brother-in-law, I had difficulty finding training. I knew the church was supposed to help me grow, but couldn't find men to train me. This resulted in my adopting both some wrong and right ideas on my own, with no pastoral oversight. Finally a pastor who did make an effort told me I needed to go to seminary. My vision didn't change, though my means of accomplishing it did. Then later, with my own pride being much of the problem, it became difficult for me to fall under teaching wholeheartedly.

Now I've received the academic training that helps one handle God's Word better, but have not received the pastoral training that I wish I had. What are some things you need to know about hospital visits? Like, don't sit on the bed or use the room's bathroom. How do you respond when a woman calls and tells you that her husband just walked out and drove away with another woman? How do you respond when a 30 year old man drops on your floor in tears because His wife and the mother of their four precious children just found out she has cancer; and it's metastasized throughout her lymph nodes? What do you say to someone who's just lost a son? Not the textbook answer, but the answer to a couple you've known for a while, who's son you've held in your arms and maybe changed diapers. You don't get these answers in seminary. These are earned through experience and the blessing of having mature men of the faith walk along side and help you grow into being a faithful shepherd.

I'm not trying to sell myself here, but my vision was born of a lack. My experience and other influences in my life have given me a burden and vision for shepherding, otherwise I don't think I would have made it to where I am. Now our prayer is that men will rise within our church so that we can equip them for ministry. We have opened our pulpit to a pastoral training school not too far from here. And I'm trying to instill a vision in our church for these things. All of this is a result of my failure to find someone to help me grow in the ministry. Recently at a church meeting I was asked to share the leadership's vision for the church. One of my statements was that we don't ever want to call another pastor like I was called. Instead, our goal is to train my replacement. I hope he's here long before I'm done. And I hope I'm not done for a long time.

JBaldwin · #11 (**permalink**) 03-13-2008, 05:17 PM

Joe,

Thanks for those comments. They were very encouraging.

DTK · #12 (**permalink**) 03-13-2008, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wannabee

Now I've received the academic training that helps one handle God's Word better, but have not received the pastoral training that I wish I had. What are some things you need to know about hospital visits? Like, don't sit on the bed or use the room's bathroom. How do you respond when a woman calls and tells you that her husband just walked out and drove away with another woman? How do you respond when a 30 year old man drops on your floor in tears because His wife and the mother of their four precious children just found out she has cancer; and it's metastasized throughout her lymph nodes? What do you say to someone who's just lost a son? Not the textbook answer, but the answer to a couple you've known for a while, who's son you've held in your arms and maybe changed diapers. You don't get these answers in seminary. These are earned through experience and the blessing of having mature men of the faith walk along side and help you grow into being a faithful shepherd.

I'm not trying to sell myself here, but my vision was born of a lack. My experience and other influences in my life have given me a burden and vision for shepherding, otherwise I don't think I would have made it to where I am. Now our prayer is that men will rise within our church so that we can equip them for ministry. We have opened our pulpit to a pastoral training school not too far from here. And I'm trying to instill a vision in our church for these things. All of this is a result of my failure to find someone to help me grow in the ministry. Recently at a church meeting I was asked to share the leadership's vision for the church. One of my statements was that we don't ever want to call another pastor like I was called. Instead, our goal is to train my replacement. I hope he's here long before I'm done. And I hope I'm not done for a long time.

I am glad to hear that you have a sense of inadequacy. That qualifies you to stand with a figure like Bunyan's Great-Heart, who when asked by Christiana how he managed to defeat the Giant Maul, replied, "It is my duty to distrust my own ability that I may have reliance on him that is stronger than all."

A felt sense of pastoral inadequacy is not a strange experience for many of Christ's servants, and often qualifies them for the very service for which they sense their own inability. That is a good thing, because it forces us (as it did Great-Heart), to rely on Christ's help.

I think the worst mistake a minister (or any Christian) can make when attempting to minister to someone who has just received soul-shaking, catastrophic news is to attempt to say something (at least for the sake of appearance) rather than nothing. In other words, what people with news like that need is your presence far more than they need your words. After all, they are hurting so bad that they are not going to remember much of anything you say, unless you say something stupid or hurtful. They don't need your words of comfort so much as they need to see in you someone who, to some degree, shares a sense of their loss, or their pain, and/or feels their burden. The truth of the matter is that sometimes a person's pain or hurt is simply too deep to be reached with words, and all we can do in such situations is to sit down beside them and weep with them.

I recall when my father died how one of my cousins tried in his own clumsy way to offer comfort. He walked up, took my hand, and said, "Hey David, hate to hear that about your dad, but whatcha gonna do?" Then he promptly patted me on the back and walked away. Now, I have nothing but loving memories for this dear cousin, but he taught me a very important lesson - viz., that it's better to say nothing than to say something stupid.

DTK