A couple of threads having to do with education (judge ruling on a homeschooling family and the argumentative essay class) have me thinking about public vs. Christian education. I started to add my to these discussions and realized I would be hopping down another rabbit trail... (We need a hopping rabbit icon!)

This time, I want to know what everyone thinks about public education. But before you all go spouting off your opinions about the usual evils of public education (lack of discipline, low test scores, gang violence, etc), I am more interested in thoughts regarding philosophy and world view. How does public education affect a person's world view and how important is that in the grand scheme of things? If we expose our children to this world viewpoint 5 days a week on a regular basis, can we counteract that with a Christian education on the evenings and weekends? What does Scripture teach about this?

I have some strong opinions on the subject, but I am interested in hearing what others have to say.

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J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

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Let me add one thing--in the poll when I am speaking of student, I am specifically thinking of students under the age of 16.

Without a doubt public education shapes the students world view. I was going to answer, "depends on the student" but I answered in general terms.

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Bill Brown
Elder
Reformed Baptist
Maryland

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Having recently graduated from a public high school (4 years ago), I may be able to share some insight.

If a Christian child is in public school, there quite honestly could be not a single sound Christian companion for them to spend time with during lunch or recess.

Also, like you implied, there are going to be around these individuals for about 7 hours of the day, which, considering Pro 13:20, could be extremely negative.

I went to an Arkansas high school, an area which most people would call the "Bible belt", and even that high school would be horrible for a Christian child to be grow up in. That being said, some of the teachers may be sound Christians; however, the vast majority of other children will not be.



*EDIT* I just noticed the under 16 comment, and I can tell you from first hand experience that children in the 4th-5th grade can be addicted to gangster rap and pornography. Where I went to school, it would still be a bad environment for a Christian child.

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Taylor W. Otwell, Husband to Abigail
Member, Fellowship Bible Church
Fort Smith, Arkansas
Family Blog

In my neck of the woods (Steubenville, Ohio) much is made of the fact that many of the teachers in the public schools are Christians - in my church there are an amazing number of PS teachers and retired teachers. BUT.....what is not taken into account is that they are working for a government organization with an atheistic worldview and agenda. Children are exposed to that agenda for at least five hours per day, five days per week. Even those from solid Christian homes cannot escape this pernicious influence. For the most part they will emerge from their 14 years of state captivity spouting the party line.

Even more distressing, in my opinion, is the inability of PS (and for that matter, many CS) students to think independently. They are so used to having information/misinformation spoon fed to them that they are unable to actually search out truth - they obediently follow whoever they perceive to be their leader. My dd was in a CS through 5th grade and I found that this attitude handicapped her through her subsequent homeschooled years, although it decreased as time went on. I see a huge difference between her and her husband who is the product of both the Christian and public school systems.

I could go on and on about this but it would turn into a HUGE bunnie trail so I'll stop here.

I picked It depends on the student. However, I really mean that it depends on the student and their parents. I believe that a child's worldview/life philosophy training is the responsibility of their parents whether they attend public school or not.

That said, the public in general can adversely influence any of us child or adult if we are not grounded properly in our faith.

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J. David Kear
Sunday School Teacher
First Presbyterian Church
Villa Rica, Georgia

This is exactly was I was gonna post.

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Bryan Riddle
1689 London Baptist Confession
Bethel Baptist Church Owasso, Oklahoma

I'm glad I wasn't homeschooled - my parents didn't have a very good fund of knowlege and they considered it in order to isolate us from worldly influences, but by the time they considered it I had already made up my mind, and I wasn't a Christian. Their attempts to isolate, and my tendency to rebel would have simply made it harder to give Christianity a fair hearing than it already was.

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The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

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At least no one is voting 'no affect'. BTW, shouldn't it be 'effect' and not 'affect'? I don't know for sure because I was publicly schooled through age 30!

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You are quite right. It is effect, because effect is a noun. Can I blame all my mistakes on the fact that I have the flu today? Thanks.

My apologies if this is off topic, but seeing as we are unanimous that public education has great influence on the worldview of our nation's children, why many Christians oppose Christian teachers from teaching in the public schools eludes me. It seems to me that we would want to get as many Christian teachers into the public teaching ranks as possible to help sway that worldview in a more Biblical direction. (Not all are called to so so, of course)

I voted "has minimal effect." This was based mainly on my own experience, which was 3 years at a State school, and 10 years at 4 different nominally Christian schools. I remember being 8 or 9 in the State school and a teacher saying (regarding religion) "there is no right or wrong, only peoples' opinions" and me thinking "that isn't true, either the claims made by each religion are true, or they aren't." I also remember thinking in high school, when I was at Christian schools, that any child who believed what they were told, just because their teachers told them, was especially dimwitted and fundamentally incapable of learning; but then I always was an intellectually arrogant child.

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T W Hopper
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church
Currently between churches since PRC closed here - attending Crossroads Christian Church.
Canberra, Australia.

I live in the Bible belt and have many friends who teach in public schools. Their complaint is that they are not allowed to teach a Christian worldview in the school. If they mention God, it must be in context with other religons. Personally, I am not opposed to Christians teaching in public schools, but just because they are there doesn't mean that the children will get a Christian education. All it means is if they happen to get a Christian teacher, they won't have their faith ridiculed.

It has been my experience, I am sure it is not the case with your many friends, that teachers are allowed to teach a Christian worldview as long as they are not ornery about it. The public school is made out to be this three headed monster that will gobble up any teacher who refuses to teach same sex marraige. But in actuality it is a giant slug with no teeth. No one cares what you teach those kids as long as the parents don't complain and your test scores don't get lower.

Besides, Christian teachers cannot help but influence children if they are in actuality living a Christian lifestyle. Kids see that. Especially kids who live in a situation where sin runs rampant at home.

Again, I am not against Christians teaching in the public schools. There are some who are called to be there, but I cannot believe that any teacher would be allowed to teach a true Christian worldview without some opposition. Perhaps I need to explain what I mean by Christian worldview. What I mean is that all things turn back to God, as Creator and Sustainer of life on this earth. So when a teacher teaches science, he teaches that God created the earth and is the Master Designer. When he teaches history, he teaches God's providence and His involvement in the affairs of men. When he teaches politics, he shows how government leaders should be required to answer to God for their behavior. I don't know of a Christian teacher who would even dream of going this far when it comes to teaching in the classroom, because of the restrictions placed on them. The public school textbooks do not present God at all, let alone in this way. If a teacher consistently contradicts the textbook, eventually someone questions it.

Church members teaching in gov't schools. Heck, I even have an elder who's a principal in one (sends his kids to CS, tho). Would we feel differently if we were living in Iran, and they were working in madrassas because, well, they could be an influence for Christ, and hey, the pay and benies ain't bad either?

Oh nevermind. What did I do with my blindfold?

Frankly, I won't teach in a government school, (I actually tried substituting at the local middle school once--won't do that again), but I do believe there are some who are called to do it. Having said that, those Christians I know teach in government schools tend to teach the lower grades or high school subjects which don't require a discussion of beliefs, such as math and music.

Strong influence. Granted there are outside influences that sometimes counter, but given the amount of time a child spends in ps compared to the amount of time usually spent with parents and church...it is definitely unbalanced in favour of the ps. The teachers there are strongly out to promote THEIR views, not encourage children in the views of their individual families. Teachers are to take whatever means necessary to accomplish not just teaching of these views, but to make certain that the students have absorbed through behaviour and thought modification. Those children that don't fall into line many times end up being commanded to psychiatric evaluation. At least that has been my experience from the schools I was familiar with.

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JC - PCA - PA...homesick for SC
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Indicabo tibi o homo quid sit bonum, et quid Dominus requirat a te: Utique facere iudicium, et diligere, misericordiam, et sollicitum ambulare cum Deo tuo. Michaeas 6:8

"Who says you can't go back, been all around the world and as a matter of fact. There's only one place left I want to go, who says you can't go home" Bon Jovi

Definite influence, UNLESS you spend each and every day some time countering everything they saw and heard not just from teachers but friends. We should be shielding our children from ungodly infuence not putting them directly in its path.

1 Corinthians 15:33
Do not be deceived: "Bad company ruins good morals."

Why would we put our children through was Lot was put through in the city of Sodom.

2 Peter 2:7-8
7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked
8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);

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Traci
Lynnwood OPC
"I have taken all my good deeds, and all my bad deeds, and cast them through each other in a heap before the Lord, and fled from both, and betaken myself to the Lord Jesus Christ, and in him I have sweet peace."--David Dickson

For the most part, it is the same here. Though here the psychiatric evaluation usually leads to a visit to the doctor's office where a dose of ridilin or some other behavior modifying drug is prescribed. At one time (I don't know if it is still the case), the stats indicated that 50% of the children in our county's school district where on some type of behavior-modifying drug. Most of these drugs were prescribed after a student had been evaluated by a teacher, sent to a psychiatrist and then a doctor.

Can public school teachers teach about the Christian faith as long as he is teaching about other religions?

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Curt Hayashida
member, Community Bible Church (Non-denominational)
Vallejo, CA

In my experience this is a myth. Honestly, unless a parent complains, principals by and large, do not care what is going on in the classroom. Just keep them test scores up!

I may be more of a 'dominionist' than many on PB are comfortable with but when Paul says in 1 Cor 3:22, "Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's..." was he excluding the public education system?

Public education is what it is in this country because of what the church has allowed it to become. If we endeavor to take it back, perhaps the Lord will go before us. I am not advocating stripping children of their spiritual armor and casting them to the wolves, but let our hearts not be discouraged that all is lost either.

I had several Christian professors during high school. One of them, a history teacher, skipped the "prehistoric age" during World History because "it never happened." And when I lived in Germany the two children of my host family told me what a crock evolution is (their parents had sorted through it with them at home).

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Davidius
Husband of Emily
Member of All Saints Anglican Church - Chapel Hill (AMiA / Anglican Church of North America)
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German and Classics

My experience in the public school was exactly the opposite. My faith was openly ridiculed by my teachers, and we were told that if we believed in creation we were living in the dark ages. My sister's children who attended public charter schools (in a different state from where I went to public school) had simliar experiences.

Honestly, I do not think that we can generalize based on our experiences. However, if you take a hard look at textbooks, the average teachers and the overall structure and goals of the public education, it is not Christian, but humanistic. Futhermore, the system is so out of control, that I don't think apart from a nationwide revival that the system can be redeemed.

Though I am not a public school teacher, I was plugged into the system for awhile, because I belonged to a national music teacher's organization. The mail I received on a regular basis about what they wanted me to support and teach children was frightening.

My son is 10, in the 5th grade, and attends public school. We have many interesting discussions at the supper table most evenings. My prayer is that as he continues to attend the public schools, he will continue to ask questions.

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Sterling Harmon
Presbyterian Church of Coventry (PCA)
Coventry, CT
Deacon
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But if we had more Christian teachers in the public schools, this would happen less often.

What is interesting is that because of NCLB, content standards are becoming the driving force in curriculum instead of textbooks. And the state standards in CA are not as opposed to a Christian worldview as many assume. For example, not until 7th grade is old earth theory and evolution a 'standard'. And it is hotly debated even in academia! If a parent objects, they can opt out. (Some Christians, however, have no problem with OE anyway)

And there is no standard that all students must acknowledge that 'alternative lifestyles' are moral.

It is going to be interesting to see how content standards (especially in CA since it drives the textbook industry) (apologies to you Texans) might change the textbooks for the better.

I am not saying that the CA content standards are perfect, but they have taken curricular control away from the liberal textbook companies.

Can a public school teacher talk about the scientific evidence that is opposed to evolution?

Can they? They certainly 'can'. Despite popular Christian opinion, there is no pagan 'Big Brother' looking over the teacher's shoulder every minute of every day. I am not a science teacher but it would seem to me that you would want to deal with contradicting theories on every subject.

You're kidding, right? (sad to say, I think you actually believe this)

I had Christian teachers in our school and their hands were tied. Their hands were tied when I was physically abused by other students and teachers. The principal's hands were tied when I was slapped in the face by another teacher because I did not believe homosexuality was caused by the hypothalamus being larger or smaller in said gender and that my faith teaches against it. They simply had to keep their mouths shut. One had to skim over the Jesus part of our history text, then we all had to listen quietly as a girl whose family was a member of the Nation of Islam went on about her faith. The teacher couldn't say anything for fear of being turned in for bias or racism. Our biology teacher skipped over the section on evolution "so we could finish the book in a year and hit the important parts" (she went to my church, loved her, but her hands were tied in all other matters including counsel that I knew she was dying to give and I could've used). We had one teacher that was also a farmer and preacher...the most he could do is ban cursing and do his best to catch anyone kissing in the halls. The last principal we had could only declare that boys keep their pants pulled up, but even that 6 foot plus 3 inch spiked heels, 60 some year old, retired Naval Officer had her hands tied in such matters of morality and what was and wasn't pushed. (Loved her, the principal before her would hit on the teen girls) And if a guy pushed a girl off a chair and called her a foul name...guess who got suspended if the girl socked him? (It was worth the suspension )

The teachers don't just have to fear their peers...they have to fear their students and the families of their students as well. Christian students have to fear both their teachers and their peers.

No thank you. Kudos to all the Christians that choose to work in said atmosphere...but it doesn't mean I need to send my CHILD into it.

While they "can" teach creation in most public schools these days, when a lot of us where going to school, they couldn't, because it was something that came out of the Bible and the Bible was not allowed in the schools. These days, however, and because of public pressure, it is becoming more in vogue to discuss creation. However, it is not always presented accurately or clearly. One example, I took a college biology class in a state school where creation was taught as another theory. It was so poorly presented that no one in their right mind would have accepted it as fact. When I discussed this with the teacher after the class, he admitted that he was teaching creation because he was being pressured by the local Christian college to do so. He also he admitted he had no clue what he was talking about.

For me, however, it is more than just the issue of teaching creation or not. It has to do with the entire outlook on life and the approach to politics, government, history, literature, as well as the science that is usually presented in the public school classroom, and a lot of this does not come into play until the middle and upper level classes. Face it, the majority of the teachers in the public schools are not believers, and at best, they are giving the children what they think is best for them. While it may not be antagonistic to the Christian message, it is not forthe Christian message. Jesus said, He who is not for me is against me.

Thanks, though this does not to be the case in all the schools in our area, these are the kinds of reports are very common in some schools. I met a Christian teacher who taught at our local high school who said she hid in the teacher's lounge between classes for fear of the high school boys who would not keep their hands off her.

I guess I am very blest, we as parents still have a say in what is being taught, and it's possible other areas are the same way...but when they are looking to bring new textbooks to the school system parents are given the opportunity to go and look through them and give their input on the content.

But I voted other, because even though my kids are in school for 6 hours a day, they are with me the rest of the time, that's 10 hours a day plus weekends I have with them to teach them my values and the Biblical World view, if a parent doesn't take the time to teach them then can we really blame the school system and teachers for teaching them something contrary to what they say they believe?

I have taught my kids to think for themselves, and to question things they are taught, to hold it up to scripture and see if it lines up, as that is my responsibility as a parent to do that, not a teachers.

My oldest daughter said that when students asked her teachers what they believed they teachers responded "it wasn't their place to share their own personal views" so they never knew what her teachers actually believed.

My youngest daughter has some teachers who do share their beliefs, one of her teachers (history) believes in reincarnation, to which the students think she is crazy, thinking she might come back as a butterfly, or someone else after she dies..but she also allowed the students to share what they believe and why. While she also has other teachers who ask students to pray for them.

Many of the science teachers when presenting Darwins theory of evolution say "some scientist believe" then discuss it breifly but don't focus on it and quickly move to something else...such as learning about DNA and chromosomes and how a person is designed by their DNA.

So it also depends on the parents and what they teach their kids at home during the many hours they have with them, if they neglect their duties, then certainly the kids can be influenced moreso by what teachers teach from textbooks..

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

I think if we put the blame entirely on "Public" education then we really take the onus away from the Parents who are ultimately responsible for their own children's worldview.

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Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Member Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA

Deo Vindice

I am not sure how people can argue that having more Christian teachers, principals, administrators and staff would not change public schools for the better. No doubt, these people are correct and I am missing something.

For clarity, let me state once again that I homeschool my children. I regret that Christians in this country ever allowed the state to take over the education of its youth. I would be first in line to vote for the abolishment of state funded mandatory education. (And I am an emplyee!)

I think, at this point, it might be more realistic to change it than to do away with it.

I hope that you can tell from my posts that I do not believe that the entire blame is on public education. But when I started this post, I was curious to know how many people felt that left if parents just "dumped" their children in the public education system and let the schools take charge, would their children be influenced and how much?

I, too, agree that parents are responsible to God for the education of their children which is why I will not subject my children to public education, especially as it stands in my community, and that is for two reasons 1. I know what my children will most likely hear in P.S. 2. I don't have the energy or time to try to undo any damage that might be done. I would rather teach them myself and worry about undoing all the damage done via the neighbor children, the media, and any other influences they might be exposed to.

I have a friend who spends 2-3 hours every school night one-on-one with her daughter teaching her all the things she should have learned in public school that day and testing her on all the things she has heard all day. I am not that energetic.

I would agree 100% with all you just said JB.

You say:
But first you have to establish that the gov't should be in the business of educating our children. By participating in that system, Christians are perpetuating it. But then you say:
So you agree that the gov't should not be educating children? So why would Christians want to be a partner with the gov't in doing what you agree it should not be doing? Because they pay well and have good benefits or what? You said earlier that the Church should take back the public schools. Why? They were never the Church's to begin with. If all those Christian teachers and administrators would forego the extra monetary benefits and leave the PS and go to work in CS, would that not be preferable? Wouldn't it also be preferable for the gov't to get out of the education biz, stop taxing me to death, and let me spend that money on a real education for my kids instead?

But you say you work for a gov't school, and homeschool your kids? How is that coherent? It's fine to teach pagan kids in that setting but not your own? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

You talk about surreptitious ways Christian teachers can speak the truth rather than the lies propagated by gov't schools, but the fact is that it is illegal to do so except within very limited parameters. Is this not encouraging Christians to break the law? You could say that an immoral law is not required to be obeyed, but can it be obeyed without committing sin? Yes. By not participating in it at all. So there is no valid reason for a Christian to break that law, and therefore is it not sin to do so?

Could you explain how participating is the same as perpetuating?

The Christians never should have allowed mandatory public education. If we are going to continue to allow the state to mandate public education, then I think we should try to influence it for the better. I am perhaps too naive, but it seems that Christians have three choices: Get rid of mandatory public education; change mandatory public education; or just allow the state to dictate the future of our country.

BTW, if you are going to rebuke me for sin, please don't do so with innuendo. If you think I am in sin, brother, give me something I can work with.

So you believe that my students in the public schools are 'pagans'? That's quite a judgment you just made since I doubt you know any of them.

I never said anything about being 'surreptitious'. And what 'laws' are you referring to? I have never in this thread encouraged a teacher to break the law. Once again, if you are going to accuse me of sin, please give something concrete I can repent of.

That can't be a serious question. How is participating in anything not perpetuating that thing?
You agree that mandatory public education is wrong. You probably believe, rightly, that pornography is wrong. Should Christians participate in pornography so as to "influence it for the better"? The reasoning seems a little confusing.
If mandatory public education is wrong, why would we want to change it? A pig in a prettier dress is still a pig. Seems the logical thing to do is get rid of it, not dance with it.
How have I rebuked you for sin, brother? I have pointed out plainly the incongruency of agreeing a thing is wrong to even exist and yet participating in it.
Oh, yes, I believe that the vast majority of them are, but I derive that from personal experience, so I digress, and will reword my statement thus; It's fine to teach other people's kids in that setting but not your own?
Really? How 'bout this:
Especially in light of this: