I have several questions for those who may have an answer...These questions are coming from someone who has a desire to teach at least the undergrad level.

1. Why do some professors pursue a Th.M?

2. Is one able to teach with a Th.M and pursue a Ph.D. at the same time? In other words, would it be beneficial to pursue a Th.M in order to have income while doing Ph.D. work?

3. Is it more beneficial to receive a Ph.D. from a place like Trinity, Fuller, Wheaton, etc. or from a secular university like Princeton, Harvard, Chicago, Duke, etc. or from an overseas university like Cambridge, Aberdeen, Edinburgh, etc?

4. What is the cost for an overseas degree compared to a Ph.D. from the US?

5. Finally, is it possible (or even wise) to pursue a Ph.D. with a wife and kids, assuming that you prefer your wife to not work and stay at home with the kids?

I guess I should add that I a Southern Baptist, and at this point, I have no desire to teach necessarily outside Southern Baptist or evangelical circles. I also have no problem with teaching at small college. I am not asking what I need to do in order to teach at Southern Seminary or Wheaton. I went to a small, Southern Baptist college and was influenced profoundly in my thinking by ONE professor, who was faithful to teach me the doctrines of grace and theology in general. My three best friends from college were all influenced by him as well. So I understand the influence you can have even at a small school, so I have no objections to teaching at one.

Thanks for any answers!

__________________
Nate Wood
Student, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
Clifton Baptist Church
Louisville, KY

I believe a Th.M. is pursued over a M.Div. because one wants to teach rather than be a pastor. However, I know that at some Southern Baptist seminaries that a M.Div. is required before one can go into the Th.M. program. That may have changed.

I know of a number of men who taught while working on a Ph.D., although most probably do not, due to the number of teaching positions available. It would be the perfect gig though...income and experience.

I would avoid a degree from Fuller, Wheaton and Trinity, especially Fuller. I suppose it depends on what you want to teach, where you want to teach, and if you want to do more than teach as to where you get the degree. If you want to teach at a small Baptist or evangelical college I'd stay right where you are and go to Southern.

Pursuing a degree with a family is difficult. Is your wife willing to commit to the time it will take to get the Ph.D.? What is your plan for providing for your family while working on the degree.

__________________
Ivan Schoen, Pastor
Maranatha Baptist Church
Poplar Grove, Illinois USA
http://maranatha-sbc.org/
Husband to Nancy
Father to Sherril, Sarah, Kathryn
Grandfather to Phillip
Faith is the refusal to panic. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

ThM's are a bit of a holdover from the days when minsters went from the B.D. to ThM to ThD. Since the rise in popularity of the secular university model for evangelicals seeking terminal degrees, we have seen more M.Div/M.A. to Ph.D. (depending on the school). Some pastors obtain them because they want more theological training than the M.Div. and don't want to waste their time on a D.Min., studying church growth or some such thing. If you go to the PhD in a seminary environment, you may very well obtain a ThM along the way.

A secular PhD has a certain cache in some evangelical circles. Many Christian colleges prefer a person with a terminal degree from a secular school. Many Ph.D. programs will include a M.A. along the way. Pick up a M.Div. from seminary and you may end up with a M.A. and Ph.D. from UCLA, Harvard, or wherever.

On the money side, Southern has a decent PhD program and if you are SBC, it will be TONS cheaper than ANYTHING else out there (unless you are a total genius and able to pick up lots of aid). You didn't say what your speciality will be. SBTS has some VERY good people (e.g., Tom Nettles in Church History). However, if you go to a secular school for a PhD, expect to teach at that institution while you are a grad student, thus earning some money.

The idea of going to school with a family (particularly a non-working wife) is VERY tough. My wife and I married during our B.A. programs at Westmont. We both attended Fuller together, where we began having children mid way through the programs (my wife was still sitting on a funny pillow when she went to Dr. Fuller's class on the Sermon on the Mount). My several other programs were ALL done with kids underfoot [anywhere from 3-5 (and finally down to 1 again) currently at a time]. It is VERY difficult to do this. And, it can bury you in debt.

As to Fuller, it still has (IMO) a reputation for cranking out top flight scholars of a certain kind. People like Kim Riddlebarger (White Horse Inn) is a Fuller PhD (Piper received his M.Div. there). But, then, Dr. Purpose Driven got his D.Min. there! If you are thinking of teaching in a broadly evangelical school or in a secular university, Fuller would be fine. HOWEVER, it has positioned itself on the "cutting" edge left of the evangelical world. In some circles that will be a career blocker in and of itself.

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

I checked Southern's website and one needs a M.Div. before entering the Th.M. program.

Nate, I'd suggest you find counsel with those in the know at Southern. I'm sure they can give you good advice. I don't know what program you are in at the present. That will make a difference to as to what direction you take.

I should have made it clear what it is I want to teach, but I was in a hurry when I posted. My desire is to teach theology. I am currently in the M.Div program at SBTS, with an emphasis in Biblical and Theological Studies (which is lots of Greek and Hebrew and theology classes, in case you are not familiar with it). I am finishing my second semester on campus.

I have wanted to do a Ph.D. since I started college. I have been with my wife since I was 15, and she is supportive of me doing a Ph.D. The problem is that we BOTH want to have kids soon. I am 24, and she will be 23 in July. I don't want to wait to have kids too much longer. I don't want my wife to have to work. Thus, it feels like there is almost no way I can do a Ph.D. and have kids and my wife not work, but I know there are peple who do it. I have planned to do my Ph.D. at Southern in Systematic Theology under Dr. Stephen Wellum. I just don't want to limit myself by getting my M.Div and Ph.D. from the same institution, but I dont really have a desire to teach outside SBC schools necessarly, or at least evangelical schools. So am I really "limiting" myself? My former college professor has advised me NOT to get dual degrees, but to move outside at least SBC school's for my Ph.D.

I am just asking around to hear other opinions outside those I have talked to at Southern.

This is taken directly from the PRTS website:

"Applicants to the Th.M. program should submit a completed application form, evidence of the possession of a M.Div. degree or equivalent,"

A Th.M. student here needs to have their M.Div. to be admitted to the program.

__________________
Jeff Wyman
Seminarian
Little Farms Chapel OPC, Coopersville, MI
Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary, Grand Rapids, MI

"May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence." 1 Peter 1:2-3 (ESV)

The D.Min degree: Also known as D.Min Possessed

__________________
John J.
Member Christ Prebyterian Church (OPC) Preparing For Eldership
Salt Lake City, Utah
www.christpres.net
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us...
Currently reading Patristic Roots of Reformed Worship

Excellent! If I were a young man like you I'd be in the classes with you!!

You can take this advice and pitch it out the window but if I were you I'd wait to have children until at least you have gotten your M.Div.

I respect that. A difficult thing to do in our time, depending on how much you make. Obviously you are accomplishing that now.

I know of men who have gotten Ph.D.s and had a wife and children, but I don't know if there wives worked. It will take great sacrifice and hard work. Though difficult I think you can do it if you start planning now.

<<My former college professor has advised me NOT to get dual degrees, but to move outside at least SBC school's for my Ph.D.>>

If you are going to teach in a Southern Baptist college you'll be alright, but I wouldn't for a moment tell you to discount the counsel of your college mentor. However, the situation you have described makes a Ph.D. from a SBC seminary very attractive. You will save a great deal of money.

Pray up, count the cost, make the commitment....whatever it may be.

Unless you are looking to teach in a secular college or university I doubt obtaining both degrees from SBTS would be a problem. My guess is that what your adviser is getting at is that getting both degrees from the same school could perhaps be dismissed as being too insular, not sufficiently exposed to other points of view, etc.

__________________
C.P. --Attending Grace Community Baptist Church, Mandeville, LA

"Where is the young man who fears the judgment to come? What is the breath of an enemy of God to the blast of the soul by the breath of the Almighty? If you fear the frowns of a fellow worm, how will you stand in judgment with an angry God?" --Asahel Nettleton

Click to get: Board Rules--Signature Requirements--Suggestions?

Chris is on target. The big argument against degrees from the same place is the insular one. But, PLEASE consider how much you will save vs. how much debt you will be in FOREVER if you go elsewhere. If the insular argument bothers you, pick up a M.A. from someplace else while you are teaching full time. But, Chrtistian profs are not well paid and it is VERY difficult to get rid of debt on either a pastor's or professor's salary (esp. if your wife does not work).

Why would he be in debt forever? If he goes to an upper tier secular university he'll probably get a financial package that will cover tuition and provide a yearly stipend.

__________________
Davidius
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

And though the really inspired artist may complain that, with the majority, piano-playing is mere strumming, and painting little more than daubing, yet, the exuberant feeling of having a share in the privileges of art is so overwhelming, that the scorn of the artist is preferred to the abandonment of art training in education. To have laid a production of your own, however poor, upon the altar of art becomes more and more the characteristic of an accomplished civilization. - Abraham Kuyper

You could get a M.A. across the street from Southern. Isn't there a Presbyterian (USA) seminary nearby. You certainly wouldn't be considered insular after that!