Not Everyone Should Go to College

bookslover · #1 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 12:36 AM

A very interesting article in the June issue of The Atlantic Monthly. It's by an adjunct professor of English:

In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

etexas · #2 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 12:50 AM

Makes me feel better, I did 2 years of college and after my Grandfather became ill I came home to help with some Family Business interests, I just started learning as I did it, then started my own investments company, by that point I really could not figure out a reason to get a Degree: I am self-employeyed, like I am going to fire myself for not having a degree.

Kidding aside, College Degrees are great IMHO, it just did not fall out for me that way.

turmeric · #3 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 01:27 AM

I have a BA. I'm going to a college just like he describes to become a paralegal so I can get out of my dead end clerical job. That article makes me feel like a loser.

py3ak · #4 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 12:37 PM

I think this is an unfortunate side-effect of democracy. Since we've conflated "education" with "vocational training" and both with "learning", society winds up imposing asinine burdens. Going to college is necessary in order not to have a dead-end job; it's one more obstacle in the way of the fiscally struggling, it's another form of torture to the Philistine, and it's a dilution of any real benefit of a college to those who are interested in learning.

But the article was well-written.

turmeric · #5 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 03:01 PM

Very good points, Ruben. I guess I feel like a loser because, although I enjoyed college and would like even more of it, it didn't fix the problem of how to support myself gainfully, or it hasn't done so yet. I agree with your post. I think college should ba available to anyone, but not required for all jobs. Then people would probably sort themselves out properly.

blhowes · #6 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by etexas

Makes me feel better, I did 2 years of college and after my Grandfather became ill I came home to help with some Family Business interests, I just started learning as I did it, then started my own investments biz, by that point I really could not figure out a reason to get a Degree: I am self-employeyed, like I am going to fire myself for not having a degree.

Kidding aside, College Degrees are great IMHO, it just did not fall out for me that way.

I think that's neat, first of all that you stopped college to help the family business, and secondly that you were able to make a go of it without the degree.

I was fortunate that my parents were able to put me through college. I've often wondered, though, what other alternatives there are for people who can't go to college, for whatever reason. Its neat to hear stories like yours.

etexas · #7 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blhowes

Quote:

Originally Posted by etexas

Makes me feel better, I did 2 years of college and after my Grandfather became ill I came home to help with some Family Business interests, I just started learning as I did it, then started my own investments biz, by that point I really could not figure out a reason to get a Degree: I am self-employeyed, like I am going to fire myself for not having a degree.

Kidding aside, College Degrees are great IMHO, it just did not fall out for me that way.

I think that's neat, first of all that you stopped college to help the family business, and secondly that you were able to make a go of it without the degree.

I was fortunate that my parents were able to put me through college. I've often wondered, though, what other alternatives there are for people who can't go to college, for whatever reason. Its neat to hear stories like yours.

Thank you Brother God did bless me, I may be dumb in some areas but the good Lord gave me a razor sharp business mind. I can take no credit it was the gift the Lord gave me.

DMcFadden · #8 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 03:39 PM

I am the most over-educated employee in my organization of 180 (12+ years of college/grad school). But, my most valuable employee is one who never went to college but does business better than most MBAs. College is NOT for everyone and should not be used as a hazing ritual to determine characterological traits such as stick-to-it-iveness.

py3ak · #9 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 03:42 PM

Meg, I face a similar problem, so I know where you're coming from. I doubt that any of the courses I've taken would be accepted for credit at, say, a local community college, so I'd be looking at starting from scratch just to get a B.A. or B.S. Obviously that limits my employability; it also limits the avenues I can even pursue to expand my employability.

I think it's interesting that in OT Israel there was provision made for people without ambition. When a servant decided he liked working for his master, he could become a servant for life. Basically, he's going to go through life with his expenses paid and with something to do to keep busy, but not a lot else. But there is no moral stigma attached to someone who took that alternative. But what a gap is there between that and the American Dream? There are people unsuited to the American Dream, and I think it's high time we stopped introducing some sort of societal or even ecclesiastical frowning on that as though it were somehow second best.

bookslover · #10 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by py3ak

I think it's interesting that in OT Israel there was provision made for people without ambition. When a servant decided he liked working for his master, he could become a servant for life. Basically, he's going to go through life with his expenses paid and with something to do to keep busy, but not a lot else. But there is no moral stigma attached to someone who took that alternative. But what a gap is there between that and the American Dream? There are people unsuited to the American Dream, and I think it's high time we stopped introducing some sort of societal or even ecclesiastical frowning on that as though it were somehow second best.

I think this is what the author of the article is getting at. The mantra - promoted especially by political liberals after World War II - is that everyone must go to college after high school. That surely was the obsession among guidance counselors when I was in high school (1967-1970). It was simply assumed that virtually everyone would attend college.

Our society has trained itself to look down on people who work with their hands instead of their minds. But, as with the lifetime servant in ancient Israel, some people actually like being janitors, farmers, plumbers, painters, electricians, woodworkers, carpenters, stonemasons, grocery store clerks, etc., etc. American society today seems to have no respect for people who have a talent for hands-on craftsmanship - someone who knows how to make a beautiful cabinet, for example. If you haven't been to college and earned that piece of paper, then gone on to get a job in a cubicle in some bureaucracy somewhere, you're a failure. It's unfathomable to this way of thinking that some people not only like working with their hands, they're actually good at it and can actually make a living at it.

After all, goes the thinking, only the ignorant and those in the "lower classes" work with their hands...

Higher education is a wonderful thing, but it's not for everyone...

py3ak · #11 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 04:48 PM

I agree, Richard. Part of the problem, though, is that the emphasis on college has made it harder for those who like working with their hands to make a living at it. It's also made a degree of some kind, however irrelevant, a pre-requisite for certain jobs, when there is no correlation between that sort of education and that job.

When I was 18 I worked at the Indiana State Department of Health in Provider Relations for the Children's Special Health Care Services program. When I resigned my boss said that he had had grave doubts when I started (through a temp agency) because he'd had people who had successfully run their own businesses who hadn't been able to keep up with the demands of the position. But he added that I had done well in it, and although I made some negotiations with VPs at CVS, for instance, I never felt that it was a stressful job.

etexas · #12 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DMcFadden

I am the most over-educated employee in my organization of 180 (12+ years of college/grad school). But, my most valuable employee is one who never went to college but does business better than most MBAs. College is NOT for everyone and should not be used as a hazing ritual to determine characterological traits such as stick-to-it-iveness.

Indeed! Esp. in the world of Business, the best Business people are born not made they are a bit like baseball players the best are often "naturals" those for whom the work just "clicks".

blhowes · #13 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bookslover

Our society has trained itself to look down on people who work with their hands instead of their minds. But, as with the lifetime servant in ancient Israel, some people actually like being janitors, farmers, plumbers, painters, electricians, woodworkers, carpenters, stonemasons, grocery store clerks, etc., etc. American society today seems to have no respect for people who have a talent for hands-on craftsmanship - someone who knows how to make a beautiful cabinet, for example. If you haven't been to college and earned that piece of paper, then gone on to get a job in a cubicle in some bureaucracy somewhere, you're a failure. It's unfathomable to this way of thinking that some people not only like working with their hands, they're actually good at it and can actually make a living at it.

I praise the Lord for my job in the cubicle. I enjoy it (most of the time), but there have been countless times I've seen men working, whether its digging up dirt with a John Deer rig, or plowing snow, when I've thought it must be neat to have such a job. I guess no matter where you are the grass is always greener...

DMcFadden · #14 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blhowes

I guess no matter where you are the grass is always greener...

As the recently 67 year old bard of rock once said . . .

Twenty years of schoolin'
And they put you on the day shift
Look out kid
They keep it all hid

Brad · #15 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 07:14 PM

I was expelled in tenth grade from a private international school overseas for using the name of the Lord in vain (good for that school!). I nearly completed the required credits for HS graduation with home study courses from the Univ. of Iowa and adult ed courses, but became impatient and took the GED in the late 70's. The plan was to put my fiance (who was 2 yrs older) through college for her Associates, then she would work fulltime while I went to college for a BS in engineering. She got hers and split.

My parents saved not one nickel for my college education, and after all that I couldn't have cared less. Wasted many years on crab and fishing boats, then in construction and truck driving. Let nobody tell you a college education is not necessary. That's a fool's advice in this day and age.

I have had my own business for the last eleven years, and we've seen decent earnings, but never so much as to save anything, and now in this economy we are out beyond the edge and circling the drain financially.

My nephew just got hired with his AS and a security clearance for 73k at age 23. More than I've ever earned in a year at age 49.

Don't buy any of this swill that a college degree is unnecessary. I have found many college grads to be complete idiots, but paid more than I simply due to the degree for the same work, which is a large factor in why I work for myself. These days I call it self-unemployment, and I'd bet the farm that most of you folks have not the faintest idea what that is really like.

py3ak · #16 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 07:19 PM

Brad, I understand where you're coming from (my income last year was a whopping $7,000 in 12 months). And plainly for financial well-being some sort of a degree is usually necessary. But we have the clear counter-factual of Max's experience, so while we can make a generalization we can't make it more than a generalization --and that doesn't warrant excessively 'vigorous' language.

Brad · #17 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 08:18 PM

No offense intended, Ruben, but I take umbrage with anybody counseling any brother to forgo as much credited education as he can possibly accrue and still be productive. I heard that from my own BA degreed father and his blue-collar brothers as a kid. He was one of the least productive and definitely least godly among 10 kids, but because he had the degree and was a jolly drunk, he excelled them all in income. They were painters and plumbers and electricians and factory workers who in those days experienced an opulent lifestyle by global standards, but those days are gone, their retirements stolen, and trying to make it on social security and part-time Wal-Mart type jobs. Who would wish that on their own brethren?

Maybe I'm just stressing, so I'll apologize for the 'vigorous' language and move on.

Joshua · #18 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 08:36 PM

I've always liked the saying:

Quote:

It's not How Smart Are You?, but How Are You Smart?

My brother is not a "Book" guy, at least not for the purposes of Academe. I'm more of a book guy (although I understand it probably isn't evidenced here on the PB

).

My brother, though, is incredibly smart in so many ways that I will never be. He's a much better handyman, outdoorsman, etc. and I'm envious in many ways.

py3ak · #19 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 08:56 PM

No offense taken, Brad! Sadly the reality does seem to be that one way or another the system has a random stratagem to get you into debt --if it isn't student loans it'll be a mortgage you can't afford because you're a laborer instead of a doctor.

Abd_Yesua_alMasih · #20 (**permalink**) 05-26-2008, 10:33 PM

I think the days are gone when we can afford not to have degrees. Our economies work differently. Here in the west we are in a race against the east. The only advantage we have is our education system, our science and our ability to develop new things. Their advantage is masses of cheap labour. We need to stay one step ahead. We can't compete over labour costs, otherwise we will have to lower our standards to those of India and China. What we can do is put money into research and development, money into more ingenious business and the best of the service industry.

Perhaps then "College" is not for everyone. Maybe the system needs to be reworked. We can't afford to have kids drop out because the system fails them. Yet the answer is not just to put more kids through school. In New Zealand with this idea I notice two things. a) standards are lowered to let idiots in. b) smarter students suffer as a result. Maybe there needs to be more stratification or room for the good and the bad.

Another thing I have noticed in New Zealand is that it is not always College that is the problem, but what people do in College. Teenagers are not always mature, they do not always make rational decisions and they do not always accept and/or get good advice. They enroll into things that sound fun/easy/what their friends are doing. Not what actually will help them in the future or the country. People then should ask do we need all these liberal arts degrees? Or do we need lawyers and accountants? Or will they be increasingly outsourced? Perhaps we need more scientists and mathematicians. Who knows.

I am waffling now. Fraser out.