For the moment forget the whole debate on state education vs. homeschooling vs. Christian schools vs. the classical model. Someone brought it to my attention that even in good Christian schools (like the ones I attended), most of the curriculum really didn't address real life. I have yet to balance a chemical equation in "the work force."

What are some of the most important subjects in modern day life, yet which are not addressed today in *most* schools, be they state or Christian? I would venture to say economics and law.

What are some good resources that would be intellectually accessible to young Christian youth on this subject (I have in mind ages 12-18)?

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Can this question be answered if the debate over method is done away with? There has to be a method. Any education will have a goal which has been determined by the educators to be important. This goal determines the method. For instance, I might say that the classical model is superior because, although you may not read Livy in the "real world" (whatever that means), it teaches one how to think, instead of immediately moving to cram facts into someone's head.

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DAVIDIVS DOCTVS VTRIVSQVE LINGVAE
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Currently in the process of transferring membership to an as-yet-undecided church in Chapel Hill
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

That is a very good point.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

Logic.

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Devin Brian
1689er
Attending Trinity Baptist Church in Shreveport, LA.
Vivian, Louisiana, USA

"The fall of man is written in too legible characters not to be understood: Those that deny it, by their denying, prove it." - George Whitefield

Critical thinking skills, to much individualism and coddling, we breed co-dependent entitled mental midgets that don't know what they believe nor why they believe it and are incapable of analyzing the worldviews of those around them much less their own.

We have a lack of social intelligence in the modern generations.

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Travis Speegle
Redeemer Presbyterian, PCA (Waco, Tx)
Pacific Cross Roads, PCA (Los Angeles, CA)


"When it comes to trustworthy theologians one can usually honor the rule of thumb that the deader the better."-Dr. John Hannah, DTS (of all places)

I don't want this to turn into method debate. With the possible exception of state education, I don't think there is really a "classical" or a "Christian school" way to teach economics and law, although there probably is a homeschool way to teach it.

And my second point was to ask for good resources geared to young ones on this subject.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Spear Dane;

Law as in Civics or Government classes?

Some schools here take kids on field trips to the State House, and the Court House to watch trials..while some teachers hold mock trials in their classrooms..

Economics as far as what?

A few years ago my son's math class went on a field trip to the grocery store. The teacher had them draw from a list of family groupings--some were single parents, some married, some as single never married/no kids..and told them they had X amount of money to spend, and gave them a list of groceries they needed to get..they had to write down the prices and do price comparisions of various products...

My oldest daughter took an Economics class in high school as an elective.

I've had teenage girls in my neighborhood show up at my house wanting advice on school, they wanted to drop out..I pulled out a newspaper and gave them paper and pen and asked them to look for jobs they could get as high school drop outs and with college degrees..I had them price cars, and figure out the payments, and discussed utility bill's, and gas for their cars, insurances for house/car; had them look at the prices of apartments and houses that were for rent and even to buy..and figure out how much money they would need to make; and how many hours they would need to work--based on a minimum wage job as a drop-out and based on what they could get w/ a college degree in order to support themselves..thats daily economics...

Something my sister has done is given her daughter a bank/visa debit card and puts about $200 a month on it, my niece is to use it to buy school clothes, school lunches, activities such as football games, movies, birthday presents for her friends, help put gas in the car when she wants to run every where and soforth...she's learning to budget her money. She started this right before school started and took my neice clothes shopping, and she learned real quick she can't buy the name brand clothes full price because mom wasn't buying her clothes this year..she was..so she was wanting to look for the sale racks, and the consignment shops and she even took some of her clothes she can no longer wear and put them on consignment and earned some money that way to help pay for some of the things she wanted..

I personally just give my kids the cash to do their own clothes shopping and thats all they have to spend and they have to budget the cash for their purchases, as opposed to using the debit/credit card..that way they don't try to use the credit side of the card which takes a few days to clear the bank and they may not have the money..

You can teach them about the cost of things going up in the stores because the price of gas has gone up..and how companies recoup the cost of gas getting the product to the store by putting onto those who shop at their stores...you can even teach them the cost of things and how it breaks down to help pay employees, company insurances and legal fee's, office supplies, their suppliers and soforth..

you can even teach them about cost effectiveness of doing somethings yourself as opposed to hiring someone else to do them for you..


So again, what kind of economics are you refering to? daily economics or world economics?

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

How about something as basic as arithmetic? It is not unusual to get a blank stare from the youngster behind the counter when you pull out the correct change after the dollars were entered on the cash register. (Remember these are High School students failing "Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader.")

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Soli Deo Gloria

John Schultz
Member, Riveroaks Reformed Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Germantown, TN

"The reason why we worship God in a slight way is because we do not see God in His glory"
Jeremiah Burroughs

I'd have to agree with BJ. Few young adults understand the concept of money management/financial planning: mortgages, taxes, insurance needs, credit and its costs, investing, food, rent, etc. Additionally, their generation will likely be under more financial strain given the looming possibility of escalating tax rates and reduced return on investment making sound family fiscal management critical.

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Michael Masztal
H.S. Science Teacher at Community Christian School, Melbourne, FL
Member, Chapel By The Sea, ARP
Melbourne Beach, FL

I've heard this argued as well. I wasn't taught logic and I don't know of a Christian school ( with ages 5-17) that teach it either.

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~Gloria G.~
Bride of Warren G.
Member of Trinity Presbyterian Church, PCA, Southeast Georgia

"Turn my eyes from looking at worthless things; and give me life in your ways." Psalm 119:37

Gloria;

Logic and reasoning skills are something parents can teach their children on a day to day basis...they can even start when their children are young..

Going shopping, teaching them to price compare..not only for food, but clothes, gas, anything..you have X amount of money to spend, you can buy this name brand outfit that costs the sum total of the amount you have OR you can go to the sale rack and look at items on sale..and get two or three outfits for the price of one...looking at food items, I can buy this package of meat at $4.99 per lb but it's only enough for one meal, or I can buy this family pack of meat at $3.99 per lb break it down into smaller packages and have two or three meals..logic and reasoning skills are used..

With small kids you pick out the outfits that are appropraite, then you let them choose between those..and logic and reasoning skills are used, which outfit of the two do I like better? Which one costs less so that maybe I can find another outfit I like too?

Even allowing kids to help cook, following recipes or not..letting them experiment in the kitchen with different spices and things..when my oldest daughter was in elementary school I allowed her and friend to make brownies, .the girl reading the recipe struggled with vocabulary and spelling (which we found out then) she thought vegetable oil was vinager and oil..they argued for a bit, my daughter telling her "You don't put vinager in brownies" the other girl said "yes, you do" they asked me..I said..."umm, no, you wanted to do this and said you didn't want help..so you two need to figure it out" my daughter relented and allowed the girl to put the vinegar in the brownies (even knowing it didn't go) they went on and finished the brownies...when they were done..they were sharing them with some of the other kids who were here...the kids were all like "ummmm" as they were just putting them in their mouth...but as soon as they swallowed the taste of vinager set in...and they wanted to spit them back out, but it was to late..they threw the rest of them out..all of the kids learned that day...Vinegar doesn't go in brownies...they also learned the 'oldest child' doesn't always know whats best..and that you don't make the mistake of 'saying you don't need/want help" to figure something out..they used math skills in measurement, reading skills to know what the recipe called for..and reasonings skills to try and solve a problem they disagreed on..

I don't know if your electric companies or water companies send out price per gallon or price per kilowatt hour forms with your bill's but ours does..so I sometimes use those to teach the kids it takes X amount of water to wash clothes, take a shower/bath, or X amount of kilowatts to run the dryer or light or Television whatever per hour..and this is how much it costs to run those things..now if we only use lights when we need them and open the curtains to let the sun in..we can save on the electric bill and have more money to spend or save for such and such...or if we wash X number of small loads of clothes or wash one larger load by putting two or three peoples clothes in the washer at a time...it will cost this amount or this amount...it gets them thinking..(I typically do this when the electric or water bill is a bit higher than normal)


even as far as the laws, we can teach our kids what the laws are--drinking under a certain age is against the law, so it's not my rule they would be breaking if they drink underage, they would be breaking the law of the state and the laws say these are the consequences..doing drugs is against the law..if you do this your not breaking my rule, your breaking the law, and there are consequences for breaking man's laws if you break the law...just like when I got my ticket the other day...I used that as an example of breaking the law and the consequences of having to pay a fine for doing so..and how it effects everyone in the family, not just me..because that is money that could have been spent on something else..(but I don't suggest going out and getting a ticket just to teach this lesson).

But as parents we shouldn't rely entirely on the schools to teach these things to our kids, when we can do this in our everyday interactions with our kids just with things around us in the house or out in the world in which we live..

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

I would agree that logic should be taught. If we do not know how to detect logical fallacies, then we can be easily persuaded by fallacious arguments.

Resources for studying logic can be found here: Logic Articles

Do you think the other branches of philosophy such as ethics, metaphysics, and epistemology should be taught as well?

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Curt Hayashida
member, Community Bible Church (Non-denominational)
Vallejo, CA

Non-Western civilization courses should be taught and the thinkers of Asia ought to be incorporated as well as the best of the West to give students a more global view of the world.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Personally I do think that everyone should study philosophy for at least two reasons:
1) To learn how to think. Being able to follow complex philosophical arguments and then articulate them on one's own is a feat in itself which bears fruit in many other areas. Without being able to reason and evaluate a pile of facts is worthless.
2) There is nothing new under the sun and the same philosophical problems are rehashed over and over again. By studying the major works in the history of philosophy, one can learn how to deconstruct secular thought and see how it crumbles at the feet of God's Word. If one can refute Plato, Aristotle, Hume, Kant, and Nietzsche then one can refute anyone.


No, that's not necessary for students in primary and secondary schools. They should all learn Latin and Greek and become thinkers. Let them major in International Studies when they get to college if they want to be "global." Then they can analyze and evaluate what they learn about the world instead of just learning about what happened at the Tianmen Square massacre.

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DAVIDIVS DOCTVS VTRIVSQVE LINGVAE
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Currently in the process of transferring membership to an as-yet-undecided church in Chapel Hill
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

I would like to make a correction on one of my above posts concerning my daughter's economics class, she said Government and Economics are required courses their Senior year...but even those don't teach the daily economics of families..

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

hmmmm...Greek sounds good, but why Latin? If children under 10 absorb languages twice as fast as adults, then why not a very dissimiliar language like Arabic or Chinese? Linguistically, the farther apart the languages learned the better exercise it is for the child.

There is nothing wrong with a preference for Western Culture, but a young start at a global worldview aids even small children.



On a side note: One neglected area in education is real hands-on tasks. Shop is one such class in high school but is often not seen as an academic heavy hitter. But, being handy is something that the vast majority of Americans lack; often because they never learned how (ironically because they were "too smart" to do grease-monkey-type work or major in shop in school).

I wish I at least figured out how to set a VCR clock to something besides the flashing 12:00.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Because Latin forms the basis of many languages. Knowing latin one can esasily move to French, Spanish, or Italian. Very practical.

Eastern worldviews are monistic, self-defeating and not a great place to start. And I can say for experience--I did study and imbibe eastern worldviews for a long time. This complented my study in martial arts.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Good reasons. Sanskrit, however, is the basis for many more languages.

The monistic,self-defeating part might be true.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Spear,

I agree on the issue's of economics and law, I would side against logic, though. In economics children need to be taught the difference between coin and credit, and there standing at law in relation to these things, not modern social theories presupposed upon certain statist presuppositions.

American's live their lives today completely oblivious to the meaning of coin and credit, entering into contracts without a second thought because everyone else does, also without a second thought. It's just what we do. In turn, there has been a radical alteration of thought that is also, then, applied as an a priori prism through which Scripture is interpreted.

In our lives we interact on a daily basis with one another primarily through economics and law, failing to develop a Biblical presupposition in regards to these things. In turn, at least in the United States, modern Christians live in terms of class instead of estate, never fully comprehending their relationships.

I wouldn't support Logic, unless taught from a Christian presupposition in works like Isaac Watts, Logic - because it teaches Aristotle's philosophical paradigm as the fountainhead of thought.

There are four or five primary works that need to be studied very throughly at the high school level.

1. Theodore Beza, Rights of Magistrates
2. Samuel Rutherford, Lex Rex
3. George Gillespie, Aaron's Rod Blossoming
4. Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England

Young men and women need to be entering life with understanding what their legal estate is, how to repair it if it has been impaired by their parents, and how to live in terms of Christ prepared to pull down strongholds instead of surrendering to them "because everyone else does." You can't spoil a strong man's house until you bind him, unfortunately, Christians are sending their children into the world legally hog tied with a mandate - "Live Dialectically for Christ"

Thomas

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Thomas Weddle
Member, Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church
Evansville, Indiana

Students in Asia should take non-Western civilization courses. There is nothing wrong with American students taking non-Western civilization courses, but it is more important for someone born and raised in America to be familiar with Western civilization than with Asian civilization.

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Curt Hayashida
member, Community Bible Church (Non-denominational)
Vallejo, CA

Spear Dane;

Looking at Chemistry you could do this at home as well...when cooking..using the chemical compound names for water H20, and salt NaCl, Baking Soda sodium bicarbonate (2 NAHCO3) Reacts in baking, but is alkaline and needs the acidity from other ingredients (such as honey, molasses, cocoa, sour or butter milk) to react and release CO2.

Home Baking Association: Recipes and Baking Resources for Teachers, Parents and Kids

Mixtures & Compounds

sugar, or sucrose (chemical compound) --*Britannica Online Encyclopedia

http://www.valdosta.edu/~lwood/scie3.../chapter18.PDF


Chemistry24.com

So even looking at Chemistry, we can teach our kids while cooking various foods...so while you may not use it in your everyday life in the work force it is used daily in cooking whether we call it that or not..

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

I really like this tread.
Thank you guys for all the good ideas.

In the logic preparation: I have the girls solve logic/brain twister etc... problems as part of their school work.
I also ask a lot of questions during school and along the day.
I confirm that Latin is a great tool to understand grammar (English) and can serve as a jumping board for all Latin languages. So far, we keep it to French.
If you have girls, it is a good idea to make them do menus using the weekly sales adds, a grocery list that stays in the budget.
If one has the opportunity to travel outside the USA, it is a very good experience to see first hand other cultures and how good we have it.
So many wonderful things to do and learn, so little time.

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