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C.P. --Attending Grace Community Baptist Church, Mandeville, LA

"Where is the young man who fears the judgment to come? What is the breath of an enemy of God to the blast of the soul by the breath of the Almighty? If you fear the frowns of a fellow worm, how will you stand in judgment with an angry God?" --Asahel Nettleton

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I do see a problem if the pastor or elder believes another officer is guilty of heresy but does not move to charge him for whatever reason. My understanding is this is largely how the PCUSA was lost.

McArthur weighs in John H Armstrong : Interpreting the Bible: The False Assumptions of Modernism

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Bruce
PCUSA
Ocean City NJ

As I am understanding what the content of the controversy is about, I realize it has barely been tackled in this thread. Ens and others contention is that modern insistence for wooden literal factual historical accuracy on the ancients is unwarranted. Any thoughts?

Not really in this context since your earlier comment had to do with a pastor reading a book and giving pastoral advice to students under his care as to which seminary to attend. So it was not really a personal matter. Now you have turned it into a personal matter, which is fine as far as it goes.

But it fails to address my earlier concerns about publically labeling brethren based on personal opinion.

Scott Clark said something in another thread that I think is important and speaks to the fundamental issue:

Exactly! That is what I have been trying to say here wrt the private, individual pronouncements against Dr. Enns. You may read his book and consider it troubling, even heretical. But Dr. Enns is a man under authority, the authority of a presbytery called by God to make judgment calls as to a man’s confessionalism. I would even go so far as to say that any pronouncements by an independent seminary amount to no more than “private views” ala Dr. Clark’s comment.

All you may say at this point is that he doesn’t appear to agree with your interpretation of the confession. You may think that's enough to withdraw fellowship or reco young students not attend his seminary, but I certainly wouldn’t go that far.

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Tom Albrecht
Member, Covenant URCNA, New Holland, PA.

"I'm not a famous man. I'm just a simple country doctor with horse sense."



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Which presbytery is it, and how are they involved at this time?

Interesting related article by Reed DePace over at Green Baggins.

I do not know what Presbytery he is apart of.

I do not know what his Presbytery is doing or how involved they are, but I think it is safe to assume that they are aware of this situation and will deal with it. As you know, the wheels of Presbytery turn very slowly.

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~Wayne Wylie~
Member, Mid Cities Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Ruling Elder - Inactive
http://www.mcopc.org
Bedford, TX

Job 28:28 - And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

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The public-private distinction you make is not the issue. I used two examples to reason with you -- one a pastor counseling a seminary candidate, and two a hypothetical dialog between you and me.

The public-private point you make is what we in the law call a "distinction without a difference." Or, a distinction that makes no difference to the point at hand.

The point at hand was the legitimacy of WTS exercising orthodoxy determinations in terms of whom it retains on its faculty.

You questioned that legitimacy; I defended it.

It makes no sense to characterize WTS's decision to let the professor go as a "private" decision. It was very public the instant they announced it. Hundreds of churches and thousands of presbyterian church members are interested in the orthodoxy of WTS's professors. And rightly so.

They took 3 years to act on this professor's book.

It took Reformed Jackson only one year to get rid of Bahnsen after his Theonomy in Christian Ethics was published.

And the latter was not a matter of orthodoxy, but merely controversy.

I question the wisdom of that, but not the para-ecclesiastical authority.

It was very unwise of them to run Greg off, but they surely had the authority.

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HaigLaw, ruling elder
Grace PCA, Shreveport, LA
http://www.xanga.com/HaigLaw

We are in agreement that WTS decision was not a "private matter".

We disagree as to whether independent WTS has the legitimate authority to determine orthodoxy (what is confessional and what is not), and base faculty decisions on such independent determinations.

I’m still waiting for any argument on the nature of independent authority in the matter of confessional determination.

That is the distinction with a difference, IMO.

I think where I would net out on this is in the scope of a seminary's authority in contrast with the authority that a Presbytery has, say. A seminary has the authority to determine what it is going to teach within its bounds, just as a presbytery has the authority to determine what is going to be taught within its bounds. A seminary therefore has the right to determine what constitutes confessionalism within its range of authority.

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Rev. Lane Keister
Teaching Elder, PCA, North Dakota (working out of bounds in a CRC and an RCA church)
http://greenbaggins.wordpress.com
http://brahmsgreenglove.blogspot.com
http://accenttranslation.blogspot.com

Hi Lane, Is there anything on your blog that discusses Enn's thrust that ancient literature is being forced to be something it was not intended to be by modern interpreters? Thanks

I don't think so. The only real issue I have dealt with in regard to Enns has been the situation as a whole, and how it is being handled by WTS. I have read I&I, however.

Well? Any thoughts you wish to share in public? If not I understand.

Of course WTS has authority. They pay the money. We are not talking about civil servants here.

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Scott Roberts
Ruling Elder, Lakeside Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Southlake, Texas

I think I would agree to some extent with Enns on this, though there need to be boundaries set. I do think that ancient history writing differs from modern history writing in some significant ways. However, what Enns does not do justice to is the fact that the biblical writing was always polemical against the ANE. I get the feeling with Enns that there is way too much continuity between ANE writing and the Bible. I remember having a conversation with him at GA last year in which I was commenting on Poole's Synopsis Criticorum. Enns seemed a bit neutral with regard to the work. But he did comment about how we now have the Dead Sea Scrolls. The comment seemed to assume that whole paradigms have shifted in biblical interpretation since the Reformation, by means of discovering such scrolls as these. Now, far be it from me to denigrate using the DSS in seeking to understand the first-century world. I have no doubt that many good insights have come from that. However, the main interpreter of Scripture is Scripture, not outside texts. I wonder how much he would affirm that.

It seems to me that if we need the DSS to understand the Bible, then the scriptures would be of little value to anyone but speculative scholars.

We know where a presbytery gets its authority. It is divinely instituted and strictly regulated by the Word of God. It has the power to institute and define confessions, require subscription of its members, define the boundaries of subscription, and discipline those who stray.

From whence cometh the seminary's parallel authority? I can’t find anything in the Bible to instruct an independent seminary in this regard?

Or is this just a business proposition? It can make rules for its employees same as Penn State or Pizza Hut.

Is it merely de facto authority and I should just get over it?

Right. However, there is a difference between those passages of Scripture that are so clear that a normal person, aided by the Holy Spirit, can come into a correct understanding of them for salvation. And indeed, even the other parts of Scripture would not be misunderstood as to their general content, even if we had no extra-biblical texts available to us. However, I would not be willing to say that extra-biblical sources have never helped us to understand better any passages of Scripture.