Probably. I was merely making an empirical observation from my own limited experience.

Well if you want to be relevant...

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church

Student of Theology
Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
My Blog

It's also probably because it's now the middle of the semester and they don't want to leave the students in the lurch half way through.

By the way, Bill, you're looking younger in each new avatar photo!

__________________
Richard T. Zuelch, M.Div
Ruling Elder, OPC (not currently serving)
Westminster Presbyterian Church, CA (OPC)
www.stacksobooks.blogspot.com
www.reiterations.wordpress.com

A perfect autobiography would be an anticipation of the Day of Judgment. - George Saintsbury (1845-1933)

I got a WTS graduate (a pastor) upset once when I said I was not a product of a "theological cemetery", but there is much truth to it. Is there a sound seminary these days? MARS? Reformed Baptist Seminary? (apart from the baptistic stuff -- sorry credos!) Any that can be recommended?

So much apostatizing begins over issues of Scripture, both OT and NT. And this seems -- to me, with my peculiar point of view -- to be intrinsic to Critical and Eclectic Text assumptions (I would have to include Majority Text too, to some extent, I'm afraid), where what we have is a provisional Scripture dependent on ongoing studies and research. Pandora's Box has been opened in this discipline and there is no getting what came out back in. The "best minds" in Evangelical (and Reformed) scholarship are taken with the notion of progress in determining the text of Scripture. Within this paradigm anything is fair game.

Does the future of P & R churches depend on graduates from seminaries? Theological education used to be a great blessing; now it is increasingly becoming a bane. And we are locked into drawing our fish from these pools, which are more and more polluted with poisons.

I remember when the Lord and the apostles picked unlearned men (for the most part) and trained them.

__________________
Steve Rafalsky
Elder, International Evangelical Church (Reformed)
Limassol, Cyprus

"I am set for the defense of the gospel" (Philippians 1:17)

"Strengthened with all might, according to His glorious
power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness..." (Colossians 1:11)

Amen brother Steve.

Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

__________________
1689 Baptist Confession

Psa 55:16 As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
Psa 55:17 Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.
James Farley, Wilderness Road Baptist Assembly.
Husband of Melissa and father of Ann.
www.wildernessroadbaptist.org

I'm not against seminary training. There is a risk in swinging the pendulum too much to either side. Seminaries are human run organizations, and like most organizations, often stray from the path after a period of time. Unfortunately the men who leave these seminaries man pulpits that teach others. Even when/if the school reforms the damage is already done in the local church. This is another reason for confessional subscription.

I have always wondered what it would be like if a young man was called to preach and then came under the mentorship and guidance of his pastor and denomination. Certainly there would be a requirement for languages, exegesis and much study. But imagine the value of watching ministry take place from men who were engaged in it. There are many stories of men who have gone to seminary but not the ministry. They never knew the call of God on their life or found out, in school or after, that ministry was not something they wanted to do. Perhaps they had a crisis of faith because of an issue such as a provisional approach to scripture. Entering into an apprenticeship along side a minister of the gospel would expose the ministerial candidate to the realities of ministry.

I am just sharing a thought and by no means am I impugning seminaries in general. I may be out to lunch with this idea but it's one that I've often entertained.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Deo volente

I think I'll stick with my suit and tie.

__________________
Ivan Schoen, Pastor
Maranatha Baptist Church
Poplar Grove, Illinois USA
http://maranatha-sbc.org/
Husband to Nancy
Father to Sherril, Sarah, Kathryn
Grandfather to Phillip
Faith is the refusal to panic. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

I'm certainly not against seminary training either (or Bible college). When I was in seminary we had a class called "field education". For one semester we worked in a church with the pastor (or associates). That was a good effort, but not enough, IMHO. Students were encouraged to be involved in their local churches while in seminary. That's good too but certainly not the same as having a mentor. Students were encouraged to take ministry positions while in seminary. I think that's fine too, however with 5,000 students vying for positions it made it tough to find these church positions. I got involved in a position at the seminary, which became essential a full-time position, while attending semiary full-time. That didn't leave a lot of time for local church activities other than attending services.

However, I had the opportunity to have a wonderful mentor before I went to seminary. I was a member of Calvary Baptist Church in Edwardsville, Illinois while going to Southern Illinois University in the same town in 1974. The church had just called a young pastor by the name of Roger Ellsworth. Roger had been preaching since he was twelve years old (maybe younger) and had started his pastoral ministry at the age of sixteen. Now I don't know when Roger came to believe the Doctrines of Grace but he was a firm believer (which caused him some problems during his ministry at Calvary).

While I was at Calvary I came to believe that God wanted me to enter the pastoral ministry. I made that belief public (my wife was not happy at the time!) and was taken under the wing of Roger for about three years before I went to seminary. I was essentially the assistant pastor to Roger. I taught Sunday School, lead the children's church, the bus ministry, wrote articles for the church's newletter, worked with Roger in pastoral visitation, preached at Calvary in Roger's absence and supply preached in many churches in Southern Illinois. I remember that at one point we had a group that met at Roger's home on a Friday to study more deeply the Doctrines of Grace. That started with James Packer's Knowing God. I taught some of those evenings before a roaring fire and hot mugs of coffee in the living room of the Ellsworths.

I was involved in every aspect of ministry with Roger. One of the things I enjoyed the most was visiting bookstores with Roger. That was an education in itself. I learned what good books were and the discussion about them was enriching and edifying. I heard Roger preach three times a week and teach a couple times a week. Believe me, it was a education all within itself.

I tell people all the time that I learned more about the pastoral ministry in the three years I was with Roger than I ever learned in three years at Southwestern Seminary. That's the truth. It's interesting that during my time with Roger at Calvary there where members of the church that thought it best that I changed churches, basically to get away from Roger's teaching. I really didn't understand why at the time. At one time I had the opportunity to take a paid position within our local association which involved moving. I know we didn't move more than about 20 minutes from Calvary but the members of the church said it would be a good time for me to move my membership. Of course, I didn't and I'm glad I stayed under Roger's teaching.

These are thw words of a recent graduate:


Yes, I was able to look through the thread. Some seem to have been waiting for this "spring cleaning" at WTS. But I'm just not of the same mindset. Enns and Green were my favorite professors (OT dept). I had Pete as my Intro to OT prof. and I remember dinstinctly the day he introduced himself to me in the men's room by saying, "Hey I'm Pete." Real down to earth guy, played baseball, really smart. His teaching style was that of a man wrestling with the text with real honesty. He never claimed to have the answers, but he presented us with lots of questions to think about.

I'm really disturbed by WTS's decision.

__________________
Bruce
PCUSA
Ocean City NJ

Steve, are you really laying the whole problem at the feet of critical text advocates? There are a myriad of issues here, ranging from the fragmentation of the theological disciplines (which I think is much more fundamental, with each discipline viewing every other discipline with great suspicion), to just plain pride/ego, to faulty views of Scripture (this is really a distinct issue from the TR/CT issue). I highly doubt that acceptance of the CT can be blamed for this problem.

__________________
Rev. Lane Keister
Teaching Elder, PCA, North Dakota (working out of bounds in a CRC and an RCA church)
http://greenbaggins.wordpress.com
http://brahmsgreenglove.blogspot.com
http://accenttranslation.blogspot.com

Ivan,

I had a similar experience. My "mentor" was Pastor John Schmucker, previously of the Oakwood Baptist Church in Kearny, New Jersey and now the pastor of Paramus Bible Church in Paramus, New Jersey. John would not agree with Roger on the doctrines of grace but he has the heart of a pastor. When I separated from the Air Force in 1983 I spent a few years at John's side doing many of the things (except for preaching) that you did with Roger. What I learned from this dear man aides me today.

Our anecdotal experiences aside I wonder whether a formal mentorship program could be developed, especially in Baptist churches. It worth discussion. I'm not going to get into it now because I will be hijacking this thread. Perhaps I will start a separate thread on this topic.

Blessings.

...where the students are happy to have those paid to teach them say they don't have any solid information for them, which is surely what not "claim[ing] to have the answers" boils down to.

If the professor doesn't know the answers, what's the point of him teaching?

Doesn't living in a perpetual sea of unanswered questions pretty much describe what Paul referred to in his second letter to Timothy as "always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth"?

__________________
Anne Ivy
Christ Chapel Bible Church
Fort Worth, Texas

Married to Don, mother of six, grandmother to an ever-increasing brood.

The Ivy Vine (my blog)

Steve, as can be adduced from many of my own posts, I resonate with your concern about the future of seminary education. However, with Lane, I would not frame the issue as narrowly as one of TR/CT. It seems to me that the larger issue relates to modernist (the postmodernist is even worse here!) presuppositions when approaching the Bible. The attitude that animates the critical method leads to the objectification of scripture and the exaltation of the critical examiner. Given the pervasiveness of human hubris, any method that leads the reader to confuse his role with that of ruler will inevitably lead to problems.

Reformed theology, more than other varieties of Protestantism, has depended upon an "educated clergy." We are "stuck" with the unintended consequences of that dependence, including drift away from orthodoxy. Other than SBTS, name a seminary that has been around for more than a few decades that was able to retain its original theological convictions without the struggle reported at WTS.

My alma mater, Fuller, didn't take more than two decades to begin retreating from inerrancy. Now, the place is a hothouse for NPP, McLaren/Jones/Pagitt notions, ridicule of traditional theological views in a number of areas, and general latitudinarianism.

If my thesis that intellectual hubris will continually exert a pull away from orthodoxy can be sustained, something must be counterposed to prevent that drift. My provisional theory (and part of the reason I am hanging out with you TR folks these days) is that confessionalism honestly embraced and diligently applied functions as a check on my autonomous reason. The case of WTS demonstrates that such a corrective only works when the trustees, administration, faculty, and constituency take seriously the vigilance required.

What do you folks think?

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

Steve,

When those untrained men can raise people from the dead, speak natural foreign languages without learning them, shake off serpents, survive stoning, beatings, drownings, be transported by the Spirit from place to place, and even pronounce a death sentence.

Until then seminaries are still a good idea.

Yes there are solid confessional seminaries. I can think of one or two.

rsc

__________________
R. Scott Clark, D.Phil
Associate Professor of Historical and Systematic Theology

"For Christ, His Gospel, and His Church"
Associate Pastor
Oceanside URC
The Heidelblog

I have very little experience in these areas, but apparently even those with great experience can't stop the "seminary slide" from happening, so I have one thought: Does it have anything to do with the fact that secular universities are still sort of a farming system when it comes to theological professors? That is, if you want to be a professor in a confessionally Reformed seminary, more often than not you have to get your finishing touch and coup de grace at a Harvard, Yale, Oxford, Cambridge, etc.

I'm not claiming guilt by association, nor am I going off in an anti-intellectual direction. Just wondering if that might have something to do with it. We act as if pride is somehow less of a temptation than lust. And yet all of us men recognize the temptation present with the computer, regenerate status notwithstanding, and take status to avoid it. However, we don't hesitate to put men in the schools of Babylon for their M.A., followed by the instruction of Egypt for their Ph. D., before they go back and teach the children of Judah.

Ideally it would be great to know all of the wisdom of the world so as to combat it, but as long as there is an almost universal trend for seminaries to at least tip towards liberalism within a matter of decades, I wonder whether it is a good idea to make men go through the current system. When you read their books, and are forced to gain tenure and respect by publishing in "non-conservative" theological or historical journals, with all the tongue-holding and what not that goes along with it, how can we expect these men to not come out smelling a little fishy?

I might be completely off, but that's the thought I'm having.

__________________
Joshua Wiseman
Riverview PCA
Charleston, WV

"Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings."
- Psalm 17:8

This is interesting to me. Best I can tell this man's methods have not led him to conclusions that stray from theological tenants of the faith. However in this thread it seems some see him in that light or even worse in the light of a non-believing critical scholar. Is my observation right? I am not saying there should not be concern but it seems to be too broad brushed by association.