"Didn't learn grammar until I studied Greek"

cih1355 · #1 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 01:26 AM

Recently, I heard someone at my church say that he did not learn grammar well until he studied Greek. He said that he did not know what a participle was until he learned Greek. I think that this is sad. Any thoughts?

DMcFadden · #2 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 01:59 AM

I agree. (California schools . . . sigh)

bookslover · #3 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 02:25 AM

My experience watching my fellow students back in my beginning Greek days is that people could learn Greek (or any language) with a lot less pain if they were familiar with English grammar - and English grammatical terms.

If someone doesn't know what an adverb is in English, he's not going to know what one is in Greek.

I think beginning Greek grammars should include a definition of basic grammatical terms: verbs, adverbs, participles, etc.

AV1611 · #4 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 04:16 AM

I have been learning Hebrew and I have the same problem, we were never taught grammar!!

JohnOwen007 · #5 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 04:37 AM

Yes, I'm another that knew no grammar until I learned the biblical languages. I can't speak for the US but in Australia our current education system has seen much better days.

Rote learning (which isn't always a good thing but is necessary at points) is frowned upon and pragmatics rules. Alas.

Backwoods Presbyterian · #6 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cih1355

Recently, I heard someone at my church say that he did not learn grammar well until he studied Greek. He said that he did not know what a participle was until he learned Greek. I think that this is sad. Any thoughts?

I was in the same boat as your acquaintance at church. I did not have a grasp on English grammar and it hurt me in that regard. Thankfully our Professor knew that the majority of us had bad educations and gave us an English grammar booklet at the beginning of the term.

Davidius · #7 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 07:29 AM

Yep, same story here. In most public high schools "English" class deals only with literature, very little with the English language itself, if at all. I only began to learn grammar because of Latin.

ChristopherPaul · #8 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 08:08 AM

I know some people who are from India who have children who do not know how to speak or understand the English language. They said they are not worried; their kids will learn English when they go to school and have English class.

Boy are they in for a wake up call.

Romans922 · #9 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 08:24 AM

That was my experience as well.

turmeric · #10 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 09:44 AM

This is why I like the Classical School method - with an ancient language taught during primary grades, and a living foreign language in the upper level. Wish I'd learned Latin or Greek when I was a little kid.

greenbaggins · #11 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 09:57 AM

I am very fortunate to have parents who know grammar well. I do think it is much easier to learn Latin, Greek, and Hebrew if one has a solid grasp of the English language. However, grammar education today is in a shocking state. I remember my first year of college, when I was attending a community college, going to an English class where we were supposed to critique each other's work on the basis of getting the structure of an essay clearly outlined. My colleagues could not even put together a complete English sentence. And they were in college!

To quote the learned professor, "I wonder what what they do teach them in these schools."

JBaldwin · #12 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 10:03 AM

I think it is much easier to study any foreign language if you understand English grammar.

I had no idea that they were not teaching English grammar in public high schools. I went to a private school where it was drilled into my head until I was sick of it. When I took German and French, I found the grammar part to be easy. I am home schooling my children, and we spend a good chunk of the day learning grammar before they get to high school.

BobVigneault · #13 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 10:06 AM

This is the reason I've finally decided to start my kids in latin. It may be a dead language but the foundation that it sets for spelling and grammar cannot be over estimated. I took latin as a freshman in high school and it's made such a difference.

Any other foreign language will come so much easier. The biggest detriment is not knowing the parts of speech.

Wheelock's book came two days ago. Latin will be a summer course.

Davidius · #14 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobVigneault

This is the reason I've finally decided to start my kids in latin. It may be a dead language but the foundation that it sets for spelling and grammar cannot be over estimated. I took latin as a freshman in high school and it's made such a difference.

Any other foreign language will come so much easier. The biggest detriment is not knowing the parts of speech.

Wheelock's book came two days ago. Latin will be a summer course.

It's not totally dead! I'm going to a conference this summer at the University of Kentucky at which we will be speaking only Latin for an entire week, in and out of the seminars. Advanced Latin students and teachers from all over will be in attendance. Hopefully I'll end up doing my MA there (they still teach willing students to write and speak fluently) and will be able to fight for the resurrection of active Latin in Academia (and then...the world!).

py3ak · #15 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 10:12 AM

I remember a particularly long, tense day in homeschooling when finally something clicked in my brain and grammar was at least a navigable tangle. It made Russian and Greek a lot easier.

JohnOwen007 · #16 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davidius

Hopefully I'll end up doing my MA there (they still teach willing students to write and speak fluently) and will be able to fight for the resurrection of active Latin in Academia (and then...the world!).

Ah, a man after my own heart! I

My proposal is that reinstall Latin as the international language (just like the 16-17th centuries).

Perhaps the PB can soon have all it's discussions in that magnificent language ...

Davidius · #17 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnOwen007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davidius

Hopefully I'll end up doing my MA there (they still teach willing students to write and speak fluently) and will be able to fight for the resurrection of active Latin in Academia (and then...the world!).

Ah, a man after my own heart! I

My proposal is that reinstall Latin as the international language (just like the 16-17th centuries).

Perhaps the PB can soon have all it's discussions in that magnificent language ...

Having an international language for things like travel, trade and literature is a wonderful thing. English seems to have become that language, but we have thereby cut ourselves off from Western culture's rich history. It should definitely be reinstated.

And now for a shameless advertisement: Is there a market for online tutoring?

BobVigneault · #18 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 10:42 AM

That's amazing David. I had no idea things like that went on. People try to say it's dead but now and then.....

I was coming home late one night and I came upon a van stuck in the mud. The emergency workers were trying to help but the frightened passengers, a van load of pharmacists, were unable to understand. I stopped and was able to calm them down and translate for the emergency workers.

Rident stolidi verba Latina!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davidius

It's not totally dead! I'm going to a conference this summer at the University of Kentucky at which we will be speaking only Latin for an entire week, in and out of the seminars. Advanced Latin students and teachers from all over will be in attendance. Hopefully I'll end up doing my MA there (they still teach willing students to write and speak fluently) and will be able to fight for the resurrection of active Latin in Academia (and then...the world!).

Daniel Ritchie · #19 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 12:20 PM

This sounds normal; I am only starting to understand grammar nowadays. It was a mystery to me at school.

jawyman · #20 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 01:09 PM

This is why I liked Mounce when I was first learning Greek. Mounce believes if you don't understand English grammar, you are going to have a hard time learning Greek or any other language for that matter.
I like that Mounce would in Basics of Biblical Greek cover some English grammar, before going into the Greek.

bookslover · #21 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobVigneault

That's amazing David. I had no idea things like that went on. People try to say it's dead but now and then.....

I was coming home late one night and I came upon a van stuck in the mud. The emergency workers were trying to help but the frightened passengers, a van load of pharmacists, were unable to understand. I stopped and was able to calm them down and translate for the emergency workers.

Rident stolidi verba Latina!

Does anyone know who among the ancient Roman writers had the most difficult Latin style?

Plus: Desi Arnaz was (a) Latin!