Is it is within the scope of the lawful authority of the Civil Magistrate to require the education of those under his jurisdiction?

If you reply, please elaborate.

I think it's consistent with scripture because subjects must be instructed as to what is lawful.

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~Jay~
Husband of ENS, father of J II. | Indian Trail, NC
Teacher Aide, Union County Public Schools, NC
Communicant Member, Precentor | Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte, NC | Presbyterian Reformed Church

I can delete this message if it's beyond the bounds, but should it depend on if the Civil Magistrate acknowledges the rights of King Jesus or not?

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

See the Confession of Faith (Westminster), ch. XXIII, especially section IV.

Is it okay to reject public education, then? I mean, do you think the civil magistrate should require parents send their kids to public education at the expense of private and homeschooling options?

If the state is teaching godlessness (and it is), I would say that, per the WCF, is not giving lawful commands.

Sorry if I'm detracting. Just let me know and I'll delete the posts.

Josh,

Thanks for posting the actual text of WCF 23:4. It would help if there could be away to keep that much intact.

The question is about "compulsory education".

"Compulsory education" is not synonymous as "compulsory attendance in state schools."

I don't want to say too much because I'm trying to focus on the principle of education itself. Hope that helps.

why would you delete the posts?

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Thanks, Jay. I will delete any posts detracting. Just let me know.

Why would a compulsory education law be unscriptural (or against natural law, for that matter)?

Why would that be a wicked law?

Anyone?

I see no reason why it would be either unscriptural or wicked.

(Although because of the type of governments we have, the practical application might end up that way)

Someone on another thread used the phrase 'Regulative Principle of Government'. The idea that the government needs a specific allowance from scripture for whatever it does or however it uses its authority almost seems to be assumed in much of the political discussion on the PB, but I see no warrant for taking such a view in the bible.

Laws may be made that are harsh, overbearing and intrusive and the one in authority will answer to God for that, but that does not give the ones under authority the right to declare those laws as illegitimate.

If we are going to treat government authority this way, I see no bible reason to not do the same with the authority of husbands over wives or parents over children. Yet no one I know would say wives of children have the right to ask their husbands/parents to show them specific biblical warrant for each and every single way they exercise their authority.

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Mark Li
International University Church
New South Wales, Australia

I don't see anything 'unscriptural' about the magistrate requiring that parents do their 'scriptural' duty of educating their own children.

In fact, what is the purpose of having a magistrate if not to enforce the general equity of God's law?

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Hmm...

Out of 9 people who voted false only one even bothered to tell why they think so.

So far this results of this poll confirm what I suspected all along.

This is a good question that I am not sure how to answer. I am trying mull over in my mind what the Bible requires in regard to education. Is the magistrate requiring a specific criteria in mandating education or simply insisting that children be taught an undefined something?

Would we strike a difference in biblical obedience between the man who educates his children by teaching them Latin, Greek, and arithemetic along with biblical training and the man who ignored most of the classical subjects, but taught his children his trade or craft along with sound biblical training?

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Bob Leverton
Elder, Faith Baptist Church
Family Blog: http://levertonfamily.blogspot.com/

The Magistrate is now promulgating a system whose teachings are antiethical to God's word, so in this time and place it should be resisted. The Magistrate has not the right to make law that opposes God's law, and though the mandate to attend does not directly oppose God's law, the nature of the system causes the law, in essence, to be anti-biblical.

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How often have you wondered why Christ should set His heart upon such a one as you! --Octavius Winslow

Lon Wadkins (Jesup, Iowa)
New Covenant Fellowship, OPC
Independence, Iowa

Is this a judicial law or moral law that the state should enforce?

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Chris
Independent Baptist
Michigan
Layman

I chose False... Why?

I believe the civil government is overstepping it's sphere of authority that has been regulated out to the sphere of the family... It is not the governments job to train our children, it is our responsibility to train our children.

"Give instruction to a youth about his way, Even when he is old he turneth not from it." Proverbs 22:6 Young's Literal Translation

In other words we are told by the Spirit of God is for the Parents to "Give instruction to the youth", Train up a child... This is everything from behavioral to regular Reading/Writing/Math education. So it is not the governments job nor their authority to train up our children. They are removing authority from one sphere of government to another sphere of government which is not permitted.

Some will try to use the modal of walk-along, talk-along, primarily non-delegable, Education/discipleship-based training between parents and children (Deuteronomy 6) for the argument but I believe that Deuteronomy 6 is more narrow then broader education.. I believe it is referring to Spiritual Education because it mentioned the Laws and Commandments of God.. So I can't really use Deuteronomy 6 as a proof text like Sproul Jr. Doug Phillips and others have done..

But clearly Proverbs 22:6 shows that the sphere of education resides within the sphere of the Parents and not the government....

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Michael Daniels
Reformed, RPCNA
Denton, Maryland

[i][b]As For Me And My House, We Will Serve The Lord[/i][/b]

[SIZE="1"][I][FONT="Century Gothic"]Unum Deum in Trinitate: Pater, Filius, et Spiritus Sanctus [RIGHT]Sola scriptura - Sola gratia - Sola fide - Solus Christus - Soli Deo gloria - Solum psalterium - Lex talionis[/RIGHT][/FONT][/I][/SIZE]

I don't think it matters since I am talking only about the 'general equity' of God's Law.

Some seem to be missing the main point of the OP. The question is not about who should do the educating, but should the magistrate demand that children get educated somehow. To me the answer is obvious.

I wonder how the Puritans viewed Proverbs in relation to doctrine. It is been my experience that Proverbs is not a book that is doctrinally rich and should not be used for that purpose. Thoughts?

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Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16,17.

Unless Proverbs is uninspired and not written by the inspiration of God otherwise it is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction...

Jay,

I think it depends on what is being taught. If the state requires all new drivers to attend a mandatory drivers education class, I wouldn't have any issue with the requirement. Driving is a technical skill that needs to be taught by a competent teacher. How about a child who has a learning disorder that transcends the parents ability to teach effectively? Can the parent use outside resources to bridge that gap? I believe so. These choices come under the umbrella of the parents authority in educating their child. It is the parents ultimate responsibility and he can make the decision to use or not to use resources that help in education. Ultimately the parent is accountable to God.

Now, what if the magistrate requires a child to be exposed to an ungodly environment? To be more specific, what does a parent do if the magistrate says, "Your child will learn about alternative lifestyles."? This is not just a matter of reading, writing and arithmetic. Todays public schools consider social agendas to be just as important as 1+1=2. Now, the Christian who says, "Parents must submit to the magistrate and send their children to school" may say this falls under the auspices of persecution; that they and their children are being persecuted for their faith and must endure it. Hogwash. The magistrate, imho, has gone beyond the bounds of his mandate and parents have the responsibility to protect their children. If the magistrate threatens to remove the children from the home, there are options available to parents. Christian schools can be utilized. Churches may recognize the dire nature of the courts ruling and can establish recognized schools if the ruling is not overturned. There is always the possibility of moving out of state. Yes, it may impact careers and family but I believe the situation is that critical. Doing the right thing is not always easy. At times is the most difficult option available.

Michael, I am not doubting the inspiration of scripture. I have heard it taught that two books, Job and Proverbs, are not ideal books for teaching doctrine. To be honest, it's been a long time since that has been taught to me. I wonder if anyone else has heard of this?

I voted "false," but I suppose I could change my answer depending on your definition of education. The verses I've used seen in support of education look like they don't go further than necessitating training in religious doctrine. A child can be brought up "in the fear and admonition of the Lord" without knowing mathematics or history. Are you saying that the government should be able to enforce compulsory education in these kinds of subjects? If so, then this is where I disagree. I think any sort of required curriculum is wrong.

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Davidius
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

This may explain the old adage about Baptists being Methodists with shoes, and Presbyterians being Baptists who can read. To round out the adage, Lutherans might qualify as Presbyterians who drink to excess, and Episcopalians as Lutherans who know when to say when. - D.G. Hart